Contents — 9 sections
Section 313
Tell me, what is law?
To what kind of law does your question refer?
What! Is there any difference between law and law, in this particular point of being law? For just consider what is the actual question I am putting to you. It is as though I had asked, what is gold: if you had asked me in the same manner, to what kind of gold I refer, I think your question would have been incorrect. For I presume there is no difference between gold and gold,
313bor between stone and stone, in point of being gold or stone; and so neither does law differ at all from law, I suppose, but they are all the same thing. For each of them is law alike, not one more so, and another less. That is the particular point of my question—what is law as a whole? So if you are ready, tell me.
313bWell, what else should law be, Socrates, but things loyally accepted?
313bAnd so speech, you think, is the things that are spoken, or sight the things seen, or hearing the things heard? Or is speech
313csomething distinct from the things spoken, sight something distinct from the things seen, and hearing something distinct from the things heard; and so law is something distinct from things loyally accepted? Is this so, or what is your view?
313cI find it now to be something distinct.
313cThen law is not things loyally accepted.
313cI think not.
Section 314
313cNow what can law be? Let us consider it in this way. Suppose someone had asked us about what was stated just now:
314aSince you say it is by sight that things seen are seen, what is this sight whereby they are seen? Our answer to him would have been: That sensation which shows objects by means of the eyes. And if he had asked us again: Well then, since it is by hearing that things heard are heard, what is hearing? Our answer to him would have been: That sensation which shows us sounds by means of the ears. In the same way then, suppose he should also ask us: Since it is by law that loyally accepted things are so accepted, what is this law whereby they are so accepted?
314bIs it some sensation or showing, as when things learnt are learnt by knowledge showing them, or some discovery, as when things discovered are discovered—for instance, the causes of health and sickness by medicine, or the designs of the gods, as the prophets say, by prophecy; for art is surely our discovery of things, is it not?
314bCertainly.
314bThen what thing especially of this sort shall we surmise law to be?
314bOur resolutions and decrees, I imagine: for how else can one describe law?
314cSo that apparently the whole thing, law, as you put it in your question, is a city’s resolution.
314cState opinion, it seems, is what you call law.
314cI do.
314cAnd perhaps you are right: but I fancy we shall get a better knowledge in this way. You call some men wise?
314cI do.
314cAnd the wise are wise by wisdom?
314cYes.
314cAnd again, the just are just by justice?
314cCertainly.
314cAnd so the law-abiding are law-abiding by law?
314cYes.
314cAnd the lawless are lawless by lawlessness?
314cYes.
314cAnd the law-abiding are just?
314cYes.
314cAnd the lawless are unjust?
314cUnjust.
314cAnd justice and law are most noble?
314cThat is so.
314cAnd injustice and lawlessness most base?
314cYes.
314cAnd the former preserve cities and everything else, while the latter destroy and overturn them?
314cYes.
314cHence we must regard law as something noble, and seek after it as a good.
314cUndeniably.
314cAnd we said that law is a city’s resolution?
314cSo we did.
314cWell now, are not some resolutions good, and others evil?
314cYes, to be sure.
314cAnd, you know, law was not evil.
314cNo, indeed.
314cSo it is not right to reply, in that simple fashion, that law is a city’s resolution.
314cI agree that it is not.
314cAn evil resolution, you see, cannot properly be a law.
314cNo, to be sure.
314cBut still, I am quite clear myself that law is some sort of opinion; and since it is not evil opinion, is it not manifest by this time that it is good opinion, granting that law is opinion?
314cYes.
314cBut what is good opinion? Is it not true opinion?
Section 315
314cYes.
314cAnd true opinion is discovery of reality?
314cYes, it is.
314cSo law tends to be discovery of reality.
314cThen how is it, Socrates, if law is discovery of reality, that we do not use always the same laws on the same matters, if we have thus got realities discovered?
314cLaw tends none the less to be discovery of reality: but men, who do not use
315balways the same laws, as we observe, are not always able to discover what the law is intent on—reality. For come now, let us see if from this point onward we can get it clear whether we use always the same laws or different ones at different times, and whether we all use the same, or some of us use some, and others others.
315bWhy, that, Socrates, is no difficult matter to determine—that the same men do not use always the same laws, and also that different men use different ones. With us, for instance, human sacrifice is not legal, but unholy,
315cwhereas the Carthaginians perform it as a thing they account holy and legal, and that too when some of them sacrifice even their own sons to Cronos, as I daresay you yourself have heard. And not merely is it foreign peoples who use different laws from ours, but our neighbors in Lycaea and the descendants of Athamas —you know their sacrifices, Greeks though they be. And as to ourselves too, you know, of course, from what you have heard yourself, the kind of laws we formerly used in regard to our dead, when we slaughtered sacred victims before
315dthe funeral procession, and engaged urn-women to collect the bones from the ashes. Then again, a yet earlier generation used to bury the dead where they were, in the house: but we do none of these things. One might give thousands of other instances; for there is ample means of proving that neither we copy ourselves nor mankind each other always in laws and customs.
315dAnd it is no wonder, my excellent friend, if what you say is correct, and I have overlooked it. But if you continue to express your views after your own fashion in lengthy speeches,
315eand I speak likewise, we shall never come to any agreement, in my opinion: but if we study the matter jointly, we may perhaps concur. Well now, if you like, hold a joint inquiry with me by asking me questions; or if you prefer, by answering them.
315eWhy, I am willing, Socrates, to answer anything you like.
315eCome then, do you consider just things to be unjust and unjust things just, or just things to be just and unjust things unjust?
Section 316
315eI consider just things to be just, and unjust things unjust.
315eAnd are they so considered among all men elsewhere as they are here?
315eYes.
315eAnd among the Persians also?
315eAmong the Persians also.
315eAlways, I presume?
315eAlways.
315eAre things that weigh more considered heavier here, and things that weigh less lighter, or the contrary?
315eNo, those that weigh more are considered heavier, and those that weigh less lighter.
315eAnd is it so in Carthage also, and in Lycaea?
315eYes.
315eNoble things, it would seem, are everywhere considered noble,
316band base things base; not base things noble or noble things base.
316bThat is so.
316bAnd thus, as a universal rule, realities, and not unrealities, are accepted as real, both among us and among all other men.
316bI agree.
316bThen whoever fails to attain reality, fails to attain accepted law.
316bIn your present way of putting it, Socrates, the same things appear to be accepted as lawful both by us and by the rest of the world, always:
316cbut when I reflect that we are continually changing our laws in all sorts of ways, I cannot bring myself to assent.
316cPerhaps it is because you do not reflect that when we change our pieces at draughts they are the same pieces. But look at it, as I do, in this way. Have you in your time come across a treatise on healing the sick?
316cI have.
316cThen do you know to what art such a treatise belongs?
316cI do: medicine.
316cAnd you give the name of doctors to those who have knowledge of these matters?
316cYes.
316cThen do those who have knowledge accept the same views on the same things, or do they accept different views?
316cThe same, in my opinion.
316cDo Greeks only accept the same views as Greeks on what they know, or do foreigners also agree on these matters, both among themselves and with Greeks?
316cIt is quite inevitable, I should say, that those who know should agree in accepting the same views, whether Greeks or foreigners.
316cWell answered. And do they so always?
316cYes, it is so always.
316cAnd do doctors on their part, in their treatises on health,
316ewrite what they accept as real?
316eYes.
316eThen these treatises of the doctors are medical, and medical laws.
316eMedical, to be sure.
316eAnd are agricultural treatises likewise agricultural laws?
316eYes.
316eAnd whose are the treatises and accepted rules about garden-work?
316eGardeners’.
316eSo these are our gardening laws.
316eYes.
316eOf people who know how to control gardens?
316eCertainly.
316eAnd it is the gardeners who know.
316eYes.
316eAnd whose are the treatises and accepted rules about the confection of tasty dishes?
316eCooks’.
316eThen there are laws of cookery?
316eOf cookery.
Section 317
316eOf people who know, it would seem, how to control the confection of tasty dishes?
316eYes.
316eAnd it is the cooks, they say, who know?
316eYes, it is they who know.
316eVery well; and now, whose are the treatises and accepted rules about the government of a state? Of the people who know how to control states, are they not?
316eI agree.
316eAnd is it anyone else than statesmen and royal persons who know?
316eIt is they, to be sure.
316eThen what people call laws are treatises of state,—
317bwritings of kings and good men.
317bThat is true.
317bAnd must it not be that those who know will not write differently at different times on the same matters?
317bThey will not.
317bNor will they ever change one set of accepted rules for another in respect of the same matters.
317bNo, indeed.
317bSo if we see some persons anywhere doing this, shall we say that those who do so have knowledge, or have none?
317bThat they have no knowledge.
317bAnd again, whatever is right, we shall say is lawful for each person, whether in medicine or in cookery or in gardening?
317bYes.
317bAnd whatever is not right we shall decline to call lawful?
317bWe shall decline.
317bThen it becomes unlawful.
317bIt must.
317bAnd again, in writings about what is just and unjust, and generally about the government of a state and the proper way of governing it, that which is right is the king’s law, but not so that which is not right, though it seems to be law to those who do not know; for it is unlawful.
317bYes.
317bThen we rightly admitted that law is discovery of reality.
317bSo it appears.
317bNow let us observe this further point about it. Who has knowledge of distributing seed over land?
317bA farmer.
317bAnd does he distribute the suitable seed to each sort of land?
317bYes.
317bThen the farmer is a good apportioner of it, and his laws and distributions are right in this matter?
317bYes.
317bAnd who is a good apportioner of notes struck for a tune, skilled in distributing suitable notes, and who is it whose laws are right here?
317bThe flute-player and the harp-player.
317bThen he who is the best lawyer in these matters is the best flute-player.
317bYes.
317bAnd who is most skilled in distributing food to human bodies? Is it not he who assigns suitable food?
317bYes.
317bThen his distributions and laws are best, and whoever is the best lawyer in this matter is also the best apportioner.
317bCertainly.
317bWho is he?
Section 318
317bA trainer.
317bHe is the best man to pasture the human herd of the body?
317bYes.
317bAnd who is the best man to pasture a flock of sheep? What is his name?
317bA shepherd.
317bThen the shepherd’s laws are best for sheep.
317bYes.
317bAnd the herdsman’s for oxen.
317bYes.
317bAnd whose laws are best for the souls of men? The king’s, are they not? Say if you agree.
317bI do.
317bThen you are quite right. Now can you tell me who, in former times, has proved himself a good lawgiver in regard to the laws of flute-playing? Perhaps you cannot think of him: would you like me to remind you?
317bDo by all means.
317bThen is it Marsyas, by tradition, and his beloved Olympus, the Phrygian?
317bThat is true.
317bAnd their flute-tunes also are most divine, and alone stir and make manifest those who are in need of the gods; and to this day they only remain, as being divine.
317bThat is so.
317bAnd who by tradition has shown himself a good lawgiver among the ancient kings, so that to this day his ordinances remain, as being divine?
317bI cannot think.
317bDo you not know which of the Greeks use the most ancient laws?
317bDo you mean the Spartans, and Lycurgus the lawgiver?
317bWhy, that is a matter, I daresay, of less than three hundred years ago, or but a little more. But whence is it that
318dthe best of those ordinances come? Do you know?
318dFrom Crete, so they say.
318dThen the people there use the most ancient laws in Greece?
318dYes.
318dThen do you know who were their good kings? Minos and Rhadamanthus, the sons of Zeus and Europa; those laws were theirs.
318dRhadamanthus, they do say, Socrates, was a just man; but Minos was a savage sort of person, harsh and unjust.
318dYour tale, my excellent friend, is a fiction of Attic tragedy.
318dWhat! Is not this the tradition about Minos?
318dNot in Homer and Hesiod; and yet they are more to be believed than all the tragedians together, from whom you heard your tale.
318dWell, and what, pray, is their tale about Minos?
Section 319
318dI will tell you, in order that you may not share the impiety of the multitude: for there cannot conceivably be anything more impious or more to be guarded against than being mistaken in word and deed with regard to the gods, and after them, with regard to divine men; you must take very great precaution, whenever you are about to
319ablame or praise a man, so as not to speak incorrectly. For this reason you must learn to distinguish honest and dishonest men: for God feels resentment when one blames a man who is like himself, or praises a man who is the opposite; and the former is the good man. For you must not suppose that while stocks and stones and birds and snakes are sacred, men are not; nay, the good man is the most sacred of all these things, and the wicked man is the most defiled. So if I now proceed to relate how Minos is eulogized by Homer
319band Hesiod, my purpose is to prevent you, a man sprung from a man, from making a mistake in regard to a hero who was the son of Zeus. For Homer, in telling of Crete that there were in it many men and ninety cities, says: And amongst them is the mighty city of Cnossos, where Minos was king, having colloquy with mighty Zeus in the ninth year.
319cNow here in Homer we have a eulogy of Minos, briefly expressed, such as the poet never composed for a single one of the heroes. For that Zeus is a sophist, and that sophistry is a highly honorable art, he makes plain in many other places, and particularly here. For he says that Minos consorted and discoursed with Zeus in the ninth year, and went regularly to be educated by Zeus as though he were a sophist. And the fact that Homer assigned this privilege of having been educated by Zeus to no one among the heroes but Minos makes this a marvellous piece of praise.
319dAnd in the Ghost-raising in the Odyssey he has described Minos as judging with a golden scepter in his hand, but not Rhadamanthus: Rhadamanthus he has neither described here as judging nor anywhere as consorting with Zeus; wherefore I say that Minos above all persons has been eulogized by Homer. For to have been the son of Zeus, and to have been the only one who was educated by Zeus, is praise unsurpassable. For the meaning of the verse— he was king having colloquy with mighty Zeus in the ninth year” —
319eis that Minos was a disciple of Zeus. For colloquies are discourses, and he who has colloquy is a disciple by means of discourse. So every ninth year Minos repaired to the cave of Zeus, to learn some things, and to show his knowledge of others that he had learnt from Zeus in the preceding nine years.
Section 320
319eSome there are who suppose that he who has colloquy is a cup-companion and fellow-jester of Zeus: but one may take the following as a proof that
320athey who suppose so are babblers. For of all the many nations of men, both Greek and foreign, the only people who refrain from drinking-bouts and the jesting that occurs where there is wine, are the Cretans, and after them the Spartans, who learnt it from the Cretans. In Crete it is one of their laws which Minos ordained that they are not to drink with each other to intoxication. And yet it is evident that the things he thought honorable were what he ordained as lawful for his people as well. For surely Minos did not, like an inferior person,
320bthink one thing and do another, different from what he thought: no, this intercourse, as I say, was held by means of discussion for education in virtue. Wherefore he ordained for his people these very laws, which have made Crete happy through the length of time, and Sparta happy also, since she began to use them; for they are divine. Rhadamanthus was a good man indeed, for he had been educated by Minos; he had, however, been educated,
320cnot in the whole of the kingly art, but in one subsidiary to the kingly, enough for presiding in law courts; so that he was spoken of as a good judge. For Minos used him as guardian of the law in the city, and Talos as the same for the rest of Crete. For Talos thrice a year made a round of the villages, guarding the laws in them, by holding their laws inscribed on brazen tablets, which gave him his name of brazen. And what Hesiod also has said
320dof Minos is akin to this. For after mentioning him by name he remarks— Who was most kingly of mortal kings, and lorded it over more neighboring folk than any, holding the scepter of Zeus: therewith it was that he ruled the cities as king. And by the scepter of Zeus he means nothing else than the education that he had of Zeus, whereby he directed Crete.
320dThen how has it ever come about, Socrates, that this report is spread abroad of Minos, as an uneducated
320eand harsh-tempered person?
Section 321
320eBecause of something that will make both you, if you are wise, my excellent friend, and everybody else who cares to have a good reputation, beware of ever quarreling with any man of a poetic turn. For poets have great influence over opinion, according as they create it in the minds of men by either commending or vilifying. And this was the mistake that Minos made, in waging war on this city of ours, which besides all its various culture has poets of every kind, and especially those who write tragedy.
321aNow tragedy is a thing of ancient standing here; it did not begin, as people suppose, from Thespis or from Phrynicus, but if you will reflect, you will find it is a very ancient invention of our city. Tragedy is the most popularly delightful and soul-enthralling branch of poetry: in it, accordingly, we get Minos on the rack of verse,, and thus avenge ourselves for that tribute which he compelled us to pay This, then, was the mistake that Minos made—his quarrel with us—and hence it is that, as you said in your question, he has fallen more and more into evil repute. For that he was a good
321band law-abiding person, as we stated in what went before—a good apportioner—is most convincingly shown by the fact the his laws are unshaken, since they were made by one who discovered aright the truth of reality in regard to the management of a state.
321bIn my opinion, Socrates, your statement is a probable one.
321bThen if what I say is true, do you consider that the Cretan people of Minos and Rhadamanthus use the most ancient laws?
321bI do.
321bSo these have shown themselves the best lawgivers among men of ancient times—
321capportioners and shepherds of men; just as Homer called the good general a shepherd of the folk.
321cQuite so, indeed.
321cCome then, in good friendship’s name: if someone should ask us what it is that the good lawgiver and apportioner for the body distributes to it when he makes it better, we should say, if we were to make a correct and brief answer, that it was food and labor; the former to strengthen, and the latter to exercise and brace it.
321cAnd we should be right.
321cAnd if he then proceeded to ask us—And what might that be which the good lawgiver and apportioner distributes to the soul to make it better?—what would be our answer if we would avoid being ashamed of ourselves and our years?
321cThis time I am unable to say.
321cBut indeed it is shameful for the soul of either of us to be found ignorant of those things within it on which its good and abject states depend, while it has studied those that pertain to the body and rest.
Contents — 9 sections
Section 313
313aΣΩ. ὁ νόμος ἡμῖν τί ἐστιν;
313aΕΤ. ὁποῖον καὶ ἐρωτᾷς τῶν νόμων;
313aΣΩ. τί δʼ; ἔστιν ὅτι διαφέρει νόμος νόμου κατʼ αὐτὸ τοῦτο, κατὰ τὸ νόμος εἶναι; σκόπει γὰρ δὴ ὃ τυγχάνω ἐρωτῶν σε. ἐρωτῶ γάρ, ὥσπερ εἰ ἀνηρόμην τί ἐστιν χρυσός, εἴ με ὡσαύτως ἀνήρου ὁποῖον καὶ λέγω χρυσόν, οἴομαί σε οὐκ ἂν ὀρθῶς ἐρέσθαι. οὐδὲν γάρ που διαφέρει οὔτε χρυσὸς
313bχρυσοῦ οὔτε λίθος λίθου κατά γε τὸ λίθος εἶναι καὶ κατὰ τὸ χρυσός· οὕτω δὲ οὐδὲ νόμος που νόμου οὐδὲν διαφέρει, ἀλλὰ πάντες εἰσὶν ταὐτόν. νόμος γὰρ ἕκαστος αὐτῶν ἐστιν ὁμοίως, οὐχ ὁ μὲν μᾶλλον, ὁ δʼ ἧττον· τοῦτο δὴ αὐτὸ ἐρωτῶ, τὸ πᾶν τί ἐστιν νόμος. εἰ οὖν σοι πρόχειρον, εἰπέ.
313bΕΤ. τί οὖν ἄλλο νόμος εἴη ἄν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀλλʼ ἢ τὰ νομιζόμενα;
313bΣΩ. ἦ καὶ λόγος σοι δοκεῖ εἶναι τὰ λεγόμενα, ἢ ὄψις τὰ ὁρώμενα, ἢ ἀκοὴ τὰ ἀκουόμενα; ἢ ἄλλο μὲν λόγος, ἄλλο
313cδὲ τὰ λεγόμενα· καὶ ἄλλο μὲν ὄψις, ἄλλο δὲ τὰ ὁρώμενα· καὶ ἄλλο μὲν ἀκοή, ἄλλο δὲ τὰ ἀκουόμενα, καὶ ἄλλο δὴ νόμος, ἄλλο δὲ τὰ νομιζόμενα; οὕτως ἢ πῶς σοι δοκεῖ;
313cΕΤ. ἄλλο μοι νῦν ἐφάνη.
313cΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα νόμος ἐστὶν τὰ νομιζόμενα.
313cΕΤ. οὔ μοι δοκεῖ.
Section 314
313cΣΩ. τί δῆτʼ ἂν εἴη νόμος; ἐπισκεψώμεθʼ αὐτὸ ὧδε. εἴ τις ἡμᾶς τὰ νυνδὴ λεγόμενα ἀνήρετο, ἐπειδὴ ὄψει φατὲ
314aτὰ ὁρώμενα ὁρᾶσθαι, τίνι ὄντι τῇ ὄψει ὁρᾶται; ἀπεκρινάμεθʼ ἂν αὐτῷ ὅτι αἰσθήσει ταύτῃ τῇ διὰ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν δηλούσῃ τὰ πράγματα· εἰ δʼ αὖ ἤρετο ἡμᾶς, τί δέ; ἐπειδὴ ἀκοῇ τὰ ἀκουόμενα ἀκούεται, τίνι ὄντι τῇ ἀκοῇ; ἀπεκρινάμεθʼ ἂν αὐτῷ ὅτι αἰσθήσει ταύτῃ τῇ διὰ τῶν ὤτων δηλούσῃ ἡμῖν τὰς φωνάς. οὕτω τοίνυν καὶ εἰ ἀνέροιτο ἡμᾶς, ἐπειδὴ νόμῳ τὰ νομιζόμενα νομίζεται, τίνι ὄντι τῷ νόμῳ νομίζεται;
314bπότερον αἰσθήσει τινὶ ἢ δηλώσει, ὥσπερ τὰ μανθανόμενα μανθάνεται δηλούσῃ τῇ ἐπιστήμῃ, ἢ εὑρέσει τινί, ὥσπερ τὰ εὑρισκόμενα εὑρίσκεται, οἷον τὰ μὲν ὑγιεινὰ καὶ νοσώδη ἰατρικῇ, ἃ δὲ οἱ θεοὶ διανοοῦνται, ὥς φασιν οἱ μάντεις, μαντικῇ; ἡ γάρ που τέχνη ἡμῖν εὕρεσίς ἐστιν τῶν πραγμάτων· ἦ γάρ;
314bΕΤ. πάνυ γε.
314bΣΩ. τί οὖν ἂν τούτων ὑπολάβοιμεν μάλιστα τὸν νόμον εἶναι;
314bΕΤ. τὰ δόγματα ταῦτα καὶ ψηφίσματα, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. τί γὰρ ἂν ἄλλο τις φαίη νόμον εἶναι; ὥστε κινδυνεύει, ὃ
314cσὺ ἐρωτᾷς, τὸ ὅλον τοῦτο, νόμος, δόγμα πόλεως εἶναι.
314cΣΩ. δόξαν, ὡς ἔοικε, λέγεις πολιτικὴν τὸν νόμον.
314cΕΤ. ἔγωγε.
314cΣΩ. καὶ ἴσως καλῶς λέγεις· τάχα δὲ ὧδε ἄμεινον εἰσόμεθα. λέγεις τινὰς σοφούς;
314cΕΤ. ἔγωγε.
314cΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οἱ σοφοί εἰσιν σοφίᾳ σοφοί;
314cΕΤ. ναί.
314cΣΩ. τί δέ; οἱ δίκαιοι δικαιοσύνῃ δίκαιοι;
314cΕΤ. πάνυ γε.
314cΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ οἱ νόμιμοι νόμῳ νόμιμοι;
314cΕΤ. ναί.
314cΣΩ. οἱ δὲ
314dἄνομοι ἀνομίᾳ ἄνομοι;
314dΕΤ. ναί.
314dΣΩ. οἱ δὲ νόμιμοι δίκαιοι;
314dΕΤ. ναί.
314dΣΩ. οἱ δὲ ἄνομοι ἄδικοι;
314dΕΤ. ἄδικοι.
314dΣΩ. οὐκοῦν κάλλιστον ἡ δικαιοσύνη τε καὶ ὁ νόμος;
314dΕΤ. οὕτως.
314dΣΩ. αἴσχιστον δὲ ἡ ἀδικία τε καὶ ἡ ἀνομία;
314dΕΤ. ναί.
314dΣΩ. καὶ τὸ μὲν σῴζει τὰς πόλεις καὶ τἆλλα πάντα, τὸ δὲ ἀπόλλυσι καὶ ἀνατρέπει;
314dΕΤ. ναί.
314dΣΩ. ὡς περὶ καλοῦ ἄρα τινὸς ὄντος δεῖ τοῦ νόμου διανοεῖσθαι, καὶ ὡς ἀγαθὸν αὐτὸ ζητεῖν.
314dΕΤ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
314dΣΩ. οὐκοῦν δόγμα ἔφαμεν εἶναι πόλεως τὸν νόμον;
314eΕΤ. ἔφαμεν γάρ.
314eΣΩ. τί οὖν; οὐκ ἔστιν τὰ μὲν χρηστὰ δόγματα, τὰ δὲ πονηρά;
314eΕΤ. ἔστιν μὲν οὖν.
314eΣΩ. καὶ μὴν νόμος γε οὐκ ἦν πονηρός.
314eΕΤ. οὐ γάρ.
314eΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα ὀρθῶς ἔχει ἀποκρίνεσθαι οὕτως ἁπλῶς ὅτι νόμος ἐστὶ δόγμα πόλεως.
314eΕΤ. οὐκ ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
314eΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα ἁρμόττοι ἂν τὸ πονηρὸν δόγμα νόμος εἶναι.
314eΕΤ. οὐ δῆτα.
314eΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν δόξα γέ τις καὶ αὐτῷ μοι καταφαίνεται ὁ νόμος εἶναι· ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὐχ ἡ πονηρὰ δόξα, ἆρα οὐκ ἤδη τοῦτο κατάδηλον, ὡς ἡ χρηστή, εἴπερ δόξα νόμος ἐστί;
314eΕΤ. ναί.
314eΣΩ. δόξα δὲ χρηστὴ τίς ἐστιν; οὐχ ἡ ἀληθής;
Section 315
315aΕΤ. ναί.
315aΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἡ ἀληθὴς δόξα τοῦ ὄντος ἐστὶν ἐξεύρεσις;
315aΕΤ. ἔστιν γάρ.
315aΣΩ. ὁ νόμος ἄρα βούλεται τοῦ ὄντος εἶναι ἐξεύρεσις.
315aΕΤ. πῶς οὖν, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰ ὁ νόμος ἐστὶν τοῦ ὄντος ἐξεύρεσις, οὐκ ἀεὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς νόμοις χρώμεθα περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν, εἰ τὰ ὄντα γε ἡμῖν ἐξηύρηται;
315aΣΩ. βούλεται μὲν οὐδὲν ἧττον ὁ νόμος εἶναι τοῦ ὄντος ἐξεύρεσις· οἱ δʼ ἄρα μὴ τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἀεὶ νόμοις χρώμενοι
315bἄνθρωποι, ὡς δοκοῦμεν, οὐκ ἀεὶ δύνανται ἐξευρίσκειν ὃ βούλεται ὁ νόμος, τὸ ὄν. ἐπεὶ φέρε ἴδωμεν ἐὰν ἄρα ἡμῖν ἐνθένδε κατάδηλον γένηται εἴτε τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἀεὶ νόμοις χρώμεθα ἢ ἄλλοτε ἄλλοις, καὶ εἰ ἅπαντες τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἢ ἄλλοι ἄλλοις.
315bΕΤ. ἀλλὰ τοῦτό γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐ χαλεπὸν γνῶναι, ὅτι οὔτε οἱ αὐτοὶ ἀεὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς νόμοις χρῶνται ἄλλοι τε ἄλλοις. ἐπεὶ αὐτίκα ἡμῖν μὲν οὐ νόμος ἐστὶν ἀνθρώπους θύειν ἀλλʼ ἀνόσιον, Καρχηδόνιοι δὲ θύουσιν ὡς ὅσιον ὂν
315cκαὶ νόμιμον αὐτοῖς, καὶ ταῦτα ἔνιοι αὐτῶν καὶ τοὺς αὑτῶν ὑεῖς τῷ Κρόνῳ, ὡς ἴσως καὶ σὺ ἀκήκοας. καὶ μὴ ὅτι βάρβαροι ἄνθρωποι ἡμῶν ἄλλοις νόμοις χρῶνται, ἀλλὰ καὶ οἱ ἐν τῇ Λυκαίᾳ οὗτοι καὶ οἱ τοῦ Ἀθάμαντος ἔκγονοι οἵας θυσίας θύουσιν Ἕλληνες ὄντες. ὥσπερ καὶ ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς οἶσθά που καὶ αὐτὸς ἀκούων οἵοις νόμοις ἐχρώμεθα πρὸ τοῦ περὶ τοὺς ἀποθανόντας, ἱερεῖά τε προσφάττοντες πρὸ τῆς ἐκφορᾶς τοῦ νεκροῦ καὶ ἐγχυτιστρίας μεταπεμπόμενοι· οἱ
315dδʼ αὖ ἐκείνων ἔτι πρότεροι αὐτοῦ καὶ ἔθαπτον ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ τοὺς ἀποθανόντας· ἡμεῖς δὲ τούτων οὐδὲν ποιοῦμεν. μυρία δʼ ἄν τις ἔχοι τοιαῦτα εἰπεῖν· πολλὴ γὰρ εὐρυχωρία τῆς ἀποδείξεως ὡς οὔτε ἡμεῖς ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς ἀεὶ κατὰ ταὐτὰ νομίζομεν οὔτε ἀλλήλοις οἱ ἄνθρωποι.
315dΣΩ. οὐδέν τοι θαυμαστόν ἐστιν, ὦ βέλτιστε, εἰ σὺ μὲν ὀρθῶς λέγεις, ἐμὲ δὲ τοῦτο λέληθεν. ἀλλʼ ἕως ἂν σύ τε κατὰ σαυτὸν λέγῃς ἅ σοι δοκεῖ μακρῷ λόγῳ καὶ πάλιν ἐγώ,
315eοὐδὲν μή ποτε συμβῶμεν, ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι· ἐὰν δὲ κοινὸν τεθῇ τὸ σκέμμα, τάχʼ ἂν ὁμολογήσαιμεν. εἰ μὲν οὖν βούλει, πυνθανόμενός τι παρʼ ἐμοῦ κοινῇ μετʼ ἐμοῦ σκόπει· εἰ δʼ αὖ βούλει, ἀποκρινόμενος.
315eΕΤ. ἀλλʼ ἐθέλω, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀποκρίνεσθαι ὅτι ἂν βούλῃ.
315eΣΩ. φέρε δὴ σύ, πότερα νομίζεις τὰ δίκαια ἄδικα εἶναι καὶ τὰ ἄδικα δίκαια, ἢ τὰ μὲν δίκαια δίκαια, τὰ δὲ ἄδικα ἄδικα;
Section 316
315eΕΤ. ἐγὼ μὲν τά τε δίκαια δίκαια καὶ τὰ ἄδικα
316aἄδικα.
316aΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ παρὰ πᾶσιν οὕτως ὡς ἐνθάδε νομίζεται;
316aΕΤ. ναί.
316aΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐν Πέρσαις;
316aΕΤ. καὶ ἐν Πέρσαις.
316aΣΩ. ἀλλὰ ἀεὶ δήπου;
316aΕΤ. ἀεί.
316aΣΩ. πότερον δὲ τὰ πλεῖον ἕλκοντα βαρύτερα νομίζεται ἐνθάδε, τὰ δὲ ἔλαττον κουφότερα, ἢ τοὐναντίον;
316aΕΤ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τὰ πλεῖον ἕλκοντα βαρύτερα, τὰ δὲ ἔλαττον κουφότερα.
316aΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐν Καρχηδόνι καὶ ἐν Λυκαίᾳ;
316aΕΤ. ναί.
316aΣΩ. τὰ μὲν καλά, ὡς ἔοικε, πανταχοῦ νομίζεται
316bκαλὰ καὶ τὰ αἰσχρὰ αἰσχρά, ἀλλʼ οὐ τὰ αἰσχρὰ καλὰ οὐδὲ τὰ καλὰ αἰσχρά.
316bΕΤ. οὕτως.
316bΣΩ. οὐκοῦν, ὡς κατὰ πάντων εἰπεῖν, τὰ ὄντα νομίζεται εἶναι, οὐ τὰ μὴ ὄντα, καὶ παρʼ ἡμῖν καὶ παρὰ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἅπασιν.
316bΕΤ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
316bΣΩ. ὃς ἂν ἄρα τοῦ ὄντος ἁμαρτάνῃ, τοῦ νομίμου ἁμαρτάνει.
316bΕΤ. οὕτω μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὡς σὺ λέγεις, καὶ φαίνεται ταῦτα νόμιμα καὶ ἡμῖν ἀεὶ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις· ἐπειδὰν δʼ ἐννοήσω
316cὅτι οὐδὲν παυόμεθα ἄνω κάτω μετατιθέμενοι τοὺς νόμους, οὐ δύναμαι πεισθῆναι.
316cΣΩ. ἴσως γὰρ οὐκ ἐννοεῖς ταῦτα μεταπεττευόμενα ὅτι ταὐτά ἐστιν. ἀλλʼ ὧδε μετʼ ἐμοῦ αὐτὰ ἄθρει. ἤδη ποτὲ ἐνέτυχες συγγράμματι περὶ ὑγιείας τῶν καμνόντων;
316cΕΤ. ἔγωγε.
316cΣΩ. οἶσθα οὖν τίνος τέχνης τοῦτʼ ἐστὶ τὸ σύγγραμμα;
316cΕΤ. οἶδα, ὅτι ἰατρικῆς.
316cΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἰατροὺς καλεῖς τοὺς ἐπιστήμονας περὶ τούτων;
316cΕΤ. φημί.
316dΣΩ. πότερον οὖν οἱ ἐπιστήμονες ταὐτὰ περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν νομίζουσιν ἢ ἄλλοι ἄλλα;
316dΕΤ. ταὐτὰ ἔμοιγε δοκοῦσι.
316dΣΩ. πότερον οἱ Ἕλληνες μόνοι τοῖς Ἕλλησιν ἢ καὶ οἱ βάρβαροι αὑτοῖς τε καὶ τοῖς Ἕλλησι, περὶ ὧν ἂν εἰδῶσι, ταὐτὰ νομίζουσι;
316dΕΤ. ταὐτὰ δήπου πολλὴ ἀνάγκη ἐστὶν τοὺς εἰδότας αὐτοὺς αὑτοῖς συννομίζειν καὶ Ἕλληνας καὶ βαρβάρους.
316dΣΩ. καλῶς γε ἀπεκρίνω. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀεί;
316dΕΤ. ναί, καὶ ἀεί.
316dΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ οἱ ἰατροὶ συγγράφουσι περὶ ὑγιείας ἅπερ
316eκαὶ νομίζουσιν εἶναι;
316eΕΤ. ναί.
316eΣΩ. ἰατρικὰ ἄρα καὶ ἰατρικοὶ νόμοι ταῦτα τὰ συγγράμματα ἐστὶν τὰ τῶν ἰατρῶν.
316eΕΤ. ἰατρικὰ μέντοι.
316eΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν καὶ τὰ γεωργικὰ συγγράμματα γεωργικοὶ νόμοι εἰσίν;
316eΕΤ. ναί.
316eΣΩ. τίνων οὖν ἐστιν τὰ περὶ κήπων ἐργασίας συγγράμματα καὶ νόμιμα;
316eΕΤ. κηπουρῶν.
316eΣΩ. κηπουρικοὶ ἄρα νόμοι ἡμῖν εἰσιν οὗτοι.
316eΕΤ. ναί.
316eΣΩ. τῶν ἐπισταμένων κήπων ἄρχειν;
316eΕΤ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
316eΣΩ. ἐπίστανται δʼ οἱ κηπουροί.
316eΕΤ. ναί.
316eΣΩ. τίνων δὲ τὰ περὶ ὄψου σκευασίας συγγράμματά τε καὶ νόμιμα;
316eΕΤ. μαγείρων.
316eΣΩ. μαγειρικοὶ ἄρα οὗτοι νόμοι εἰσί;
316eΕΤ. μαγειρικοί.
Section 317
316eΣΩ. τῶν ἐπισταμένων, ὡς
317aἔοικεν, ὄψου σκευασίας ἄρχειν;
317aΕΤ. ναί.
317aΣΩ. ἐπίστανται δέ, ὥς φασιν, οἱ μάγειροι;
317aΕΤ. ἐπίστανται γάρ.
317aΣΩ. εἶεν· τίνων δὲ δὴ τὰ περὶ πόλεως διοικήσεως συγγράμματά τε καὶ νόμιμά ἐστιν; ἆρʼ οὐ τῶν ἐπισταμένων πόλεων ἄρχειν;
317aΕΤ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
317aΣΩ. ἐπίστανται δὲ ἄλλοι τινὲς ἢ οἱ πολιτικοί τε καὶ οἱ βασιλικοί;
317aΕΤ. οὗτοι μὲν οὖν.
317aΣΩ. πολιτικὰ ἄρα ταῦτα συγγράμματά ἐστιν, οὓς οἱ ἄνθρωποι νόμους καλοῦσι, βασιλέων τε καὶ ἀνδρῶν
317bἀγαθῶν συγγράμματα.
317bΕΤ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
317bΣΩ. ἄλλο τι οὖν οἵ γε ἐπιστάμενοι οὐκ ἄλλοτε ἄλλα συγγράψουσι περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν;
317bΕΤ. οὔ.
317bΣΩ. οὐδὲ μεταθήσονταί ποτε περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα νόμιμα;
317bΕΤ. οὐ δῆτα.
317bΣΩ. ἐὰν οὖν ὁρῶμέν τινας ὁπουοῦν τοῦτο ποιοῦντας, πότερα φήσομεν ἐπιστήμονας εἶναι ἢ ἀνεπιστήμονας τοὺς τοῦτο ποιοῦντας;
317bΕΤ. ἀνεπιστήμονας.
317bΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ὃ μὲν ἂν ὀρθὸν ᾖ, νόμιμον αὐτὸ φήσομεν ἑκάστῳ εἶναι, ἢ τὸ ἰατρικὸν ἢ τὸ μαγειρικὸν ἢ τὸ κηπουρικόν;
317cΕΤ. ναί.
317cΣΩ. ὃ δʼ ἂν μὴ ὀρθὸν ᾖ, οὐκέτι φήσομεν τοῦτο νόμιμον εἶναι;
317cΕΤ. οὐκέτι.
317cΣΩ. ἄνομον ἄρα γίγνεται.
317cΕΤ. ἀνάγκη.
317cΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐν τοῖς συγγράμμασι τοῖς περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων καὶ ὅλως περὶ πόλεως διακοσμήσεώς τε καὶ περὶ τοῦ ὡς χρὴ πόλιν διοικεῖν, τὸ μὲν ὀρθὸν νόμος ἐστὶ βασιλικός, τὸ δὲ μὴ ὀρθὸν οὔ, ὃ δοκεῖ νόμος εἶναι τοῖς μὴ εἰδόσιν· ἔστιν γὰρ ἄνομον.
317cΕΤ. ναί.
317dΣΩ. ὀρθῶς ἄρα ὡμολογήσαμεν νόμον εἶναι τοῦ ὄντος εὕρεσιν.
317dΕΤ. φαίνεται.
317dΣΩ. ἔτι δὲ καὶ τόδε ἐν αὐτῷ διαθεώμεθα. τίς ἐπιστήμων διανεῖμαι ἐπὶ γῇ τὰ σπέρματα;
317dΕΤ. γεωργός.
317dΣΩ. οὗτος δὲ τὰ ἄξια σπέρματα ἑκάστῃ γῇ διανέμει;
317dΕΤ. ναί.
317dΣΩ. ὁ γεωργὸς ἄρα νομεὺς ἀγαθὸς τούτων, καὶ οἱ τούτου νόμοι καὶ διανομαὶ ἐπὶ ταῦτα ὀρθαί εἰσιν;
317dΕΤ. ναί.
317dΣΩ. τίς δὲ κρουμάτων ἐπὶ τὰ μέλη ἀγαθὸς νομεύς, καὶ τὰ ἄξια νεῖμαι; καὶ οἱ τίνος νόμοι ὀρθοί εἰσιν;
317dΕΤ. οἱ τοῦ
317eαὐλητοῦ καὶ τοῦ κιθαριστοῦ.
317eΣΩ. ὁ νομικώτατος ἄρα ἐν τούτοις, οὗτος αὐλητικώτατος.
317eΕΤ. ναί.
317eΣΩ. τίς δὲ τὴν τροφὴν ἐπὶ τὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων σώματα διανεῖμαι ἄριστος; οὐχ ὅσπερ τὴν ἀξίαν;
317eΕΤ. ναί.
317eΣΩ. αἱ τούτου ἄρα διανομαὶ καὶ οἱ νόμοι βέλτιστοι, καὶ ὅστις περὶ ταῦτα νομικώτατος, καὶ νομεὺς ἄριστος.
317eΕΤ. πάνυ γε.
317eΣΩ. τίς οὗτος;
Section 318
318aΕΤ. παιδοτρίβης.
318aΣΩ. οὗτος τὴν ἀνθρωπείαν ἀγέλην τοῦ σώματος νέμειν κράτιστος;
318aΕΤ. ναί.
318aΣΩ. τίς δὲ τὴν τῶν προβάτων ἀγέλην κράτιστος νέμειν; τί ὄνομα αὐτῷ;
318aΕΤ. ποιμήν.
318aΣΩ. οἱ τοῦ ποιμένος ἄρα νόμοι ἄριστοι τοῖς προβάτοις.
318aΕΤ. ναί.
318aΣΩ. οἱ δὲ τοῦ βουκόλου τοῖς βουσί.
318aΕΤ. ναί.
318aΣΩ. οἱ δὲ τοῦ τίνος νόμοι ἄριστοι ταῖς ψυχαῖς τῶν ἀνθρώπων; οὐχ οἱ τοῦ βασιλέως; φάθι.
318aΕΤ. φημὶ δή.
318bΣΩ. καλῶς τοίνυν λέγεις. ἔχοις ἂν οὖν εἰπεῖν τίς τῶν παλαιῶν ἀγαθὸς γέγονεν ἐν τοῖς αὐλητικοῖς νόμοις νομοθέτης; ἴσως οὐκ ἐννοεῖς, ἀλλʼ ἐγὼ βούλει σε ὑπομνήσω;
318bΕΤ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
318bΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν ὁ Μαρσύας λέγεται καὶ τὰ παιδικὰ αὐτοῦ Ὄλυμπος ὁ Φρύξ;
318bΕΤ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
318bΣΩ. τούτων δὴ καὶ τὰ αὐλήματα θειότατά ἐστι, καὶ μόνα κινεῖ καὶ ἐκφαίνει τοὺς τῶν θεῶν ἐν χρείᾳ ὄντας· καὶ ἔτι καὶ
318cνῦν μόνα λοιπά, ὡς θεῖα ὄντα.
318cΕΤ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
318cΣΩ. τίς δὲ λέγεται τῶν παλαιῶν βασιλέων ἀγαθὸς νομοθέτης γεγονέναι, οὗ ἔτι καὶ νῦν τὰ νόμιμα μένει ὡς θεῖα ὄντα;
318cΕΤ. οὐκ ἐννοῶ.
318cΣΩ. οὐκ οἶσθα τίνες παλαιοτάτοις νόμοις χρῶνται τῶν Ἑλλήνων;
318cΕΤ. ἆρα Λακεδαιμονίους λέγεις καὶ Λυκοῦργον τὸν νομοθέτην;
318cΣΩ. ἀλλὰ ταῦτά γε οὐδέπω ἴσως ἔτη τριακόσια ἢ ὀλίγῳ τούτων πλείω. ἀλλὰ τούτων τῶν νομίμων τὰ βέλτιστα πόθεν
318dἥκει; οἶσθα;
318dΕΤ. φασί γε ἐκ Κρήτης.
318dΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οὗτοι παλαιοτάτοις νόμοις χρῶνται τῶν Ἑλλήνων;
318dΕΤ. ναί.
318dΣΩ. οἶσθα οὖν τίνες τούτων ἀγαθοὶ βασιλῆς ἦσαν; Μίνως καὶ Ῥαδάμανθυς, οἱ Διὸς καὶ Εὐρώπης παῖδες, ὧν οἵδε εἰσὶν οἱ νόμοι.
318dΕΤ. Ῥαδάμανθύν γέ φασιν, ὦ Σώκρατες, δίκαιον ἄνδρα, τὸν δὲ Μίνων ἄγριόν τινα καὶ χαλεπὸν καὶ ἄδικον.
318dΣΩ. Ἀττικόν, ὦ βέλτιστε, λέγεις μῦθον καὶ τραγικόν.
318eΕΤ. τί δέ; οὐ ταῦτα λέγεται περὶ Μίνω;
318eΣΩ. οὔκουν ὑπό γε Ὁμήρου καὶ Ἡσιόδου· καίτοι γε πιθανώτεροί εἰσιν ἢ σύμπαντες οἱ τραγῳδοποιοί, ὧν σὺ ἀκούων ταῦτα λέγεις.
318eΕΤ. ἀλλὰ τί μὴν οὗτοι περὶ Μίνω λέγουσιν;
Section 319
318eΣΩ. ἐγὼ δή σοι ἐρῶ, ἵνα μὴ καὶ σὺ ὥσπερ οἱ πολλοὶ ἀσεβῇς. οὐ γὰρ ἔσθʼ ὅτι τούτου ἀσεβέστερόν ἐστιν οὐδʼ ὅτι χρὴ μᾶλλον εὐλαβεῖσθαι, πλὴν εἰς θεοὺς καὶ λόγῳ καὶ ἔργῳ ἐξαμαρτάνειν, δεύτερον δὲ εἰς τοὺς θείους ἀνθρώπους· ἀλλὰ πάνυ πολλὴν χρὴ προμήθειαν ποιεῖσθαι ἀεί, ὅταν μέλλῃς
319aἄνδρα ψέξειν ἢ ἐπαινέσεσθαι, μὴ οὐκ ὀρθῶς εἴπῃς. τούτου καὶ ἕνεκα χρὴ μανθάνειν διαγιγνώσκειν χρηστοὺς καὶ πονηροὺς ἄνδρας. νεμεσᾷ γὰρ ὁ θεός, ὅταν τις ψέγῃ τὸν ἑαυτῷ ὅμοιον ἢ ἐπαινῇ τὸν ἑαυτῷ ἐναντίως ἔχοντα· ἔστι δʼ οὗτος ὁ ἀγαθός. μὴ γάρ τι οἴου λίθους μὲν εἶναι ἱεροὺς καὶ ξύλα καὶ ὄρνεα καὶ ὄφεις, ἀνθρώπους δὲ μή· ἀλλὰ πάντων τούτων ἱερώτατόν ἐστιν ἄνθρωπος ὁ ἀγαθός, καὶ μιαρώτατον ὁ πονηρός. ἤδη οὖν καὶ περὶ Μίνω, ὡς αὐτὸν Ὅμηρός τε καὶ Ἡσίοδος
319bἐγκωμιάζουσι, τούτου ἕνεκα φράσω, ἵνα μὴ ἄνθρωπος ὢν ἀνθρώπου εἰς ἥρω Διὸς ὑὸν λόγῳ ἐξαμαρτάνῃς. Ὅμηρος γὰρ περὶ Κρήτης λέγων ὅτι πολλοὶ ἄνθρωποι ἐν αὐτῇ εἰσιν καὶ ἐνενήκοντα πόληες, τῇσι δέ, φησίν—ἔνι Κνωσὸς μεγάλη πόλις, ἔνθα τε Μίνωςἐννέωρος βασίλευε Διὸς μεγάλου ὀαριστής.
319cἔστιν οὖν τοῦτο Ὁμήρου ἐγκώμιον εἰς Μίνων διὰ βραχέων εἰρημένον, οἷον οὐδʼ εἰς ἕνα τῶν ἡρώων ἐποίησεν Ὅμηρος. ὅτι μὲν γὰρ ὁ Ζεὺς σοφιστής ἐστιν καὶ ἡ τέχνη αὕτη παγκάλη ἐστί, πολλαχοῦ καὶ ἄλλοθι δηλοῖ, ἀτὰρ καὶ ἐνταῦθα. λέγει γὰρ τὸν Μίνων συγγίγνεσθαι ἐνάτῳ ἔτει τῷ Διὶ ἐν λόγοις καὶ φοιτᾶν παιδευθησόμενον ὡς ὑπὸ σοφιστοῦ ὄντος τοῦ Διός. ὅτι οὖν τοῦτο τὸ γέρας οὐκ ἔστιν ὅτῳ ἀπένειμεν Ὅμηρος τῶν ἡρώων, ὑπὸ Διὸς πεπαιδεῦσθαι, ἄλλῳ ἢ Μίνῳ,
319dτοῦτʼ ἔστιν ἔπαινος θαυμαστός. καὶ Ὀδυσσείας ἐν Νεκυίᾳ δικάζοντα χρυσοῦν σκῆπτρον ἔχοντα πεποίηκε τὸν Μίνων, οὐ τὸν Ῥαδάμανθυν· Ῥαδάμανθυν δὲ οὔτʼ ἐνταῦθα δικάζοντα πεποίηκεν οὔτε συγγιγνόμενον τῷ Διὶ οὐδαμοῦ. διὰ ταῦτά φημʼ ἐγὼ Μίνων ἁπάντων μάλιστα ὑπὸ Ὁμήρου ἐγκεκωμιάσθαι. τὸ γὰρ Διὸς ὄντα παῖδα μόνον ὑπὸ Διὸς πεπαιδεῦσθαι οὐκ ἔχει ὑπερβολὴν ἐπαίνου—τοῦτο γὰρ σημαίνει τὸ ἔπος τὸ—ἐννέωρος βασίλευε Διὸς μεγάλου ὀαριστής,
319eσυνουσιαστὴν τοῦ Διὸς εἶναι τὸν Μίνων. οἱ γὰρ ὄαροι λόγοι εἰσίν, καὶ ὀαριστὴς συνουσιαστής ἐστιν ἐν λόγοις—ἐφοίτα οὖν διʼ ἐνάτου ἔτους εἰς τὸ τοῦ Διὸς ἄντρον ὁ Μίνως, τὰ μὲν μαθησόμενος, τὰ δὲ ἀποδειξόμενος ἃ τῇ προτέρᾳ ἐννεετηρίδι ἐμεμαθήκει παρὰ τοῦ Διός.
Section 320
319eΣΩ. εἰσὶν δὲ οἳ ὑπολαμβάνουσι τὸν ὀαριστὴν συμπότην καὶ συμπαιστὴν εἶναι τοῦ Διός, ἀλλὰ τῷδε ἄν τις τεκμηρίῳ χρῷτο ὅτι οὐδὲν λέγουσιν οἱ οὕτως
320aὑπολαμβάνοντες· πολλῶν γὰρ ὄντων ἀνθρώπων καὶ Ἑλλήνων καὶ βαρβάρων, οὐκ ἔστιν οἵτινες ἀπέχονται συμποσίων καὶ ταύτης τῆς παιδιᾶς, οὗ ἔστιν οἶνος, ἄλλοι ἢ Κρῆτες καὶ Λακεδαιμόνιοι δεύτεροι, μαθόντες παρὰ Κρητῶν. ἐν Κρήτῃ δὲ εἷς οὗτός ἐστι τῶν ἄλλων νόμων οὓς Μίνως ἔθηκε, μὴ συμπίνειν ἀλλήλοις εἰς μέθην. καίτοι δῆλον ὅτι ἃ ἐνόμιζεν καλὰ εἶναι, ταῦτα νόμιμα ἔθηκεν καὶ τοῖς αὑτοῦ πολίταις.
320bοὐ γάρ που, ὥσπερ γε φαῦλος ἄνθρωπος, ὁ Μίνως ἐνόμιζεν μὲν ἕτερα, ἐποίει δὲ ἄλλα παρʼ ἃ ἐνόμιζεν· ἀλλὰ ἦν αὕτη ἡ συνουσία ὥσπερ ἐγὼ λέγω, διὰ λόγων ἐπὶ παιδείᾳ εἰς ἀρετήν. ὅθεν δὴ καὶ τοὺς νόμους τούτους ἔθηκε τοῖς αὑτοῦ πολίταις, διʼ οὓς ἥ τε Κρήτη τὸν πάντα χρόνον εὐδαιμονεῖ καὶ Λακεδαίμων, ἀφʼ οὗ ἤρξατο τούτοις χρῆσθαι, ἅτε θείοις οὖσιν. Ῥαδάμανθυς δὲ ἀγαθὸς μὲν ἦν ἀνήρ· ἐπεπαίδευτο γὰρ
320cὑπὸ τοῦ Μίνω. ἐπεπαίδευτο μέντοι οὐχ ὅλην τὴν βασιλικὴν τέχνην, ἀλλʼ ὑπηρεσίαν τῇ βασιλικῇ, ὅσον ἐπιστατεῖν ἐν τοῖς δικαστηρίοις· ὅθεν καὶ δικαστὴς ἀγαθὸς ἐλέχθη εἶναι. νομοφύλακι γὰρ αὐτῷ ἐχρῆτο ὁ Μίνως κατὰ τὸ ἄστυ, τὰ δὲ κατὰ τὴν ἄλλην Κρήτην τῷ Τάλῳ. ὁ γὰρ Τάλως τρὶς περιῄει τοῦ ἐνιαυτοῦ κατὰ τὰς κώμας, φυλάττων τοὺς νόμους ἐν αὐταῖς, ἐν χαλκοῖς γραμματείοις ἔχων γεγραμμένους τοὺς νόμους, ὅθεν χαλκοῦς ἐκλήθη. εἴρηκε δὲ καὶ Ἡσίοδος ἀδελφὰ
320dτούτων εἰς τὸν Μίνων. μνησθεὶς γὰρ αὐτοῦ τοῦ ὀνόματος φησίν—ὃς βασιλεύτατος γένετο θνητῶν βασιλήων,καὶ πλείστων ἤνασσε περικτιόνων ἀνθρώπων,Ζηνὸς ἔχων σκῆπτρον· τῷ καὶ πολέων βασίλευεν. καὶ οὗτος λέγει τὸ τοῦ Διὸς σκῆπτρον οὐδὲν ἄλλο ἢ τὴν παιδείαν τὴν τοῦ Διός, ᾗ εὔθυνε τὴν Κρήτην.
320dΕΤ. διὰ τί οὖν ποτε, ὦ Σώκρατες, αὕτη ἡ φήμη κατεσκέδασται
320eτοῦ Μίνω ὡς ἀπαιδεύτου τινὸς καὶ χαλεποῦ ὄντος;
Section 321
320eΣΩ. διʼ ὃ καὶ σύ, ὦ βέλτιστε, ἐὰν σωφρονῇς, εὐλαβήσῃ, καὶ ἄλλος πᾶς ἀνὴρ ὅτῳ μέλει τοῦ εὐδόκιμον εἶναι, μηδέποτε ἀπεχθάνεσθαι ἀνδρὶ ποιητικῷ μηδενί. οἱ γὰρ ποιηταὶ μέγα δύνανται εἰς δόξαν, ἐφʼ ὁπότερα ἂν ποιῶσιν εἰς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, ἢ εὐλογοῦντες ἢ κακηγοροῦντες. ὃ δὴ καὶ ἐξήμαρτεν ὁ Μίνως, πολεμήσας τῇδε τῇ πόλει, ἐν ᾗ ἄλλη τε πολλὴ σοφία ἐστὶ καὶ ποιηταὶ παντοδαποὶ τῆς τε ἄλλης ποιήσεως
321aκαὶ τραγῳδίας. ἡ δὲ τραγῳδία ἐστὶν παλαιὸν ἐνθάδε, οὐχ ὡς οἴονται ἀπὸ Θέσπιδος ἀρξαμένη οὐδʼ ἀπὸ Φρυνίχου, ἀλλʼ εἰ θέλεις ἐννοῆσαι, πάνυ παλαιὸν αὐτὸ εὑρήσεις ὂν τῆσδε τῆς πόλεως εὕρημα. ἔστιν δὲ τῆς ποιήσεως δημοτερπέστατόν τε καὶ ψυχαγωγικώτατον ἡ τραγῳδία· ἐν ᾗ δὴ καὶ ἐντείνοντες ἡμεῖς τὸν Μίνων τιμωρούμεθα ἀνθʼ ὧν ἡμᾶς ἠνάγκασε τοὺς δασμοὺς τελεῖν ἐκείνους. τοῦτο οὖν ἐξήμαρτεν ὁ Μίνως, ἀπεχθόμενος ἡμῖν, ὅθεν δή, ὃ σὺ ἐρωτᾷς, κακοδοξότερος
321bγέγονεν. ἐπεὶ ὅτι γε ἀγαθὸς ἦν καὶ νόμιμος, ὅπερ καὶ ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν ἐλέγομεν, νομεὺς ἀγαθός, τοῦτο μέγιστον σημεῖον, ὅτι ἀκίνητοι αὐτοῦ οἱ νόμοι εἰσίν, ἅτε τοῦ ὄντος περὶ πόλεως οἰκήσεως ἐξευρόντος εὖ τὴν ἀλήθειαν.
321bΕΤ. δοκεῖς μοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰκότα τὸν λόγον εἰρηκέναι.
321bΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰ ἐγὼ ἀληθῆ λέγω, δοκοῦσί σοι παλαιοτάτοις Κρῆτες οἱ Μίνω καὶ Ῥαδαμάνθυος πολῖται νόμοις χρῆσθαι;
321bΕΤ. φαίνονται.
321bΣΩ. οὗτοι ἄρα τῶν παλαιῶν ἄριστοι νομοθέται γεγόνασιν,
321cνομῆς τε καὶ ποιμένες ἀνδρῶν, ὥσπερ καὶ Ὅμηρος ἔφη ποιμένα λαῶν εἶναι τὸν ἀγαθὸν στρατηγόν.
321cΕΤ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
321cΣΩ. φέρε δὴ πρὸς Διὸς φιλίου· εἴ τις ἡμᾶς ἔροιτο, ὁ τῷ σώματι ἀγαθὸς νομοθέτης τε καὶ νομεὺς τί ἐστιν ταῦτα ἃ διανέμων ἐπὶ τὸ σῶμα βέλτιον αὐτὸ ποιεῖ, εἴποιμεν ἂν καλῶς τε καὶ διὰ βραχέων ἀποκρινόμενοι, ὅτι τροφήν τε καὶ πόνους, τῇ μὲν αὔξων, τοῖς δὲ γυμνάζων καὶ συνιστὰς τὸ σῶμα αὐτό.
321cΕΤ. ὀρθῶς γε.
321dΣΩ. εἰ οὖν δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο ἔροιτο ἡμᾶς, τί δὲ δή ποτε ἐκεῖνά ἐστιν, ἃ ὁ ἀγαθὸς νομοθέτης τε καὶ νομεὺς διανέμων ἐπὶ τὴν ψυχὴν βελτίω αὐτὴν ποιεῖ; τί ἂν ἀποκρινάμενοι οὐκ ἂν αἰσχυνθεῖμεν καὶ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν καὶ τῆς ἡλικίας αὑτῶν;
321dΕΤ. οὐκέτι τοῦτʼ ἔχω εἰπεῖν.
321dΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μέντοι αἰσχρόν γε τῇ ψυχῇ ἡμῶν ἐστιν ἑκατέρου, τὰ μὲν ἐν αὐταῖς φαίνεσθαι μὴ εἰδυίας, ἐν οἷς αὐταῖς ἔνεστι καὶ τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ τὸ φλαῦρον, τὰ δὲ τοῦ σώματος καὶ τὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἐσκέφθαι.
Section 313
313aΣΩ. ὁ νόμος ἡμῖν τί ἐστιν;
313aΕΤ. ὁποῖον καὶ ἐρωτᾷς τῶν νόμων;
313aΣΩ. τί δʼ; ἔστιν ὅτι διαφέρει νόμος νόμου κατʼ αὐτὸ τοῦτο, κατὰ τὸ νόμος εἶναι; σκόπει γὰρ δὴ ὃ τυγχάνω ἐρωτῶν σε. ἐρωτῶ γάρ, ὥσπερ εἰ ἀνηρόμην τί ἐστιν χρυσός, εἴ με ὡσαύτως ἀνήρου ὁποῖον καὶ λέγω χρυσόν, οἴομαί σε οὐκ ἂν ὀρθῶς ἐρέσθαι. οὐδὲν γάρ που διαφέρει οὔτε χρυσὸς
313bχρυσοῦ οὔτε λίθος λίθου κατά γε τὸ λίθος εἶναι καὶ κατὰ τὸ χρυσός· οὕτω δὲ οὐδὲ νόμος που νόμου οὐδὲν διαφέρει, ἀλλὰ πάντες εἰσὶν ταὐτόν. νόμος γὰρ ἕκαστος αὐτῶν ἐστιν ὁμοίως, οὐχ ὁ μὲν μᾶλλον, ὁ δʼ ἧττον· τοῦτο δὴ αὐτὸ ἐρωτῶ, τὸ πᾶν τί ἐστιν νόμος. εἰ οὖν σοι πρόχειρον, εἰπέ.
313bΕΤ. τί οὖν ἄλλο νόμος εἴη ἄν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀλλʼ ἢ τὰ νομιζόμενα;
313bΣΩ. ἦ καὶ λόγος σοι δοκεῖ εἶναι τὰ λεγόμενα, ἢ ὄψις τὰ ὁρώμενα, ἢ ἀκοὴ τὰ ἀκουόμενα; ἢ ἄλλο μὲν λόγος, ἄλλο
313cδὲ τὰ λεγόμενα· καὶ ἄλλο μὲν ὄψις, ἄλλο δὲ τὰ ὁρώμενα· καὶ ἄλλο μὲν ἀκοή, ἄλλο δὲ τὰ ἀκουόμενα, καὶ ἄλλο δὴ νόμος, ἄλλο δὲ τὰ νομιζόμενα; οὕτως ἢ πῶς σοι δοκεῖ;
313cΕΤ. ἄλλο μοι νῦν ἐφάνη.
313cΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα νόμος ἐστὶν τὰ νομιζόμενα.
313cΕΤ. οὔ μοι δοκεῖ.
Section 313
Tell me, what is law?
To what kind of law does your question refer?
What! Is there any difference between law and law, in this particular point of being law? For just consider what is the actual question I am putting to you. It is as though I had asked, what is gold: if you had asked me in the same manner, to what kind of gold I refer, I think your question would have been incorrect. For I presume there is no difference between gold and gold,
313bor between stone and stone, in point of being gold or stone; and so neither does law differ at all from law, I suppose, but they are all the same thing. For each of them is law alike, not one more so, and another less. That is the particular point of my question—what is law as a whole? So if you are ready, tell me.
313bWell, what else should law be, Socrates, but things loyally accepted?
313bAnd so speech, you think, is the things that are spoken, or sight the things seen, or hearing the things heard? Or is speech
313csomething distinct from the things spoken, sight something distinct from the things seen, and hearing something distinct from the things heard; and so law is something distinct from things loyally accepted? Is this so, or what is your view?
313cI find it now to be something distinct.
313cThen law is not things loyally accepted.
313cI think not.
Section 314
313cΣΩ. τί δῆτʼ ἂν εἴη νόμος; ἐπισκεψώμεθʼ αὐτὸ ὧδε. εἴ τις ἡμᾶς τὰ νυνδὴ λεγόμενα ἀνήρετο, ἐπειδὴ ὄψει φατὲ
314aτὰ ὁρώμενα ὁρᾶσθαι, τίνι ὄντι τῇ ὄψει ὁρᾶται; ἀπεκρινάμεθʼ ἂν αὐτῷ ὅτι αἰσθήσει ταύτῃ τῇ διὰ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν δηλούσῃ τὰ πράγματα· εἰ δʼ αὖ ἤρετο ἡμᾶς, τί δέ; ἐπειδὴ ἀκοῇ τὰ ἀκουόμενα ἀκούεται, τίνι ὄντι τῇ ἀκοῇ; ἀπεκρινάμεθʼ ἂν αὐτῷ ὅτι αἰσθήσει ταύτῃ τῇ διὰ τῶν ὤτων δηλούσῃ ἡμῖν τὰς φωνάς. οὕτω τοίνυν καὶ εἰ ἀνέροιτο ἡμᾶς, ἐπειδὴ νόμῳ τὰ νομιζόμενα νομίζεται, τίνι ὄντι τῷ νόμῳ νομίζεται;
314bπότερον αἰσθήσει τινὶ ἢ δηλώσει, ὥσπερ τὰ μανθανόμενα μανθάνεται δηλούσῃ τῇ ἐπιστήμῃ, ἢ εὑρέσει τινί, ὥσπερ τὰ εὑρισκόμενα εὑρίσκεται, οἷον τὰ μὲν ὑγιεινὰ καὶ νοσώδη ἰατρικῇ, ἃ δὲ οἱ θεοὶ διανοοῦνται, ὥς φασιν οἱ μάντεις, μαντικῇ; ἡ γάρ που τέχνη ἡμῖν εὕρεσίς ἐστιν τῶν πραγμάτων· ἦ γάρ;
314bΕΤ. πάνυ γε.
314bΣΩ. τί οὖν ἂν τούτων ὑπολάβοιμεν μάλιστα τὸν νόμον εἶναι;
314bΕΤ. τὰ δόγματα ταῦτα καὶ ψηφίσματα, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. τί γὰρ ἂν ἄλλο τις φαίη νόμον εἶναι; ὥστε κινδυνεύει, ὃ
314cσὺ ἐρωτᾷς, τὸ ὅλον τοῦτο, νόμος, δόγμα πόλεως εἶναι.
314cΣΩ. δόξαν, ὡς ἔοικε, λέγεις πολιτικὴν τὸν νόμον.
314cΕΤ. ἔγωγε.
314cΣΩ. καὶ ἴσως καλῶς λέγεις· τάχα δὲ ὧδε ἄμεινον εἰσόμεθα. λέγεις τινὰς σοφούς;
314cΕΤ. ἔγωγε.
314cΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οἱ σοφοί εἰσιν σοφίᾳ σοφοί;
314cΕΤ. ναί.
314cΣΩ. τί δέ; οἱ δίκαιοι δικαιοσύνῃ δίκαιοι;
314cΕΤ. πάνυ γε.
314cΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ οἱ νόμιμοι νόμῳ νόμιμοι;
314cΕΤ. ναί.
314cΣΩ. οἱ δὲ
314dἄνομοι ἀνομίᾳ ἄνομοι;
314dΕΤ. ναί.
314dΣΩ. οἱ δὲ νόμιμοι δίκαιοι;
314dΕΤ. ναί.
314dΣΩ. οἱ δὲ ἄνομοι ἄδικοι;
314dΕΤ. ἄδικοι.
314dΣΩ. οὐκοῦν κάλλιστον ἡ δικαιοσύνη τε καὶ ὁ νόμος;
314dΕΤ. οὕτως.
314dΣΩ. αἴσχιστον δὲ ἡ ἀδικία τε καὶ ἡ ἀνομία;
314dΕΤ. ναί.
314dΣΩ. καὶ τὸ μὲν σῴζει τὰς πόλεις καὶ τἆλλα πάντα, τὸ δὲ ἀπόλλυσι καὶ ἀνατρέπει;
314dΕΤ. ναί.
314dΣΩ. ὡς περὶ καλοῦ ἄρα τινὸς ὄντος δεῖ τοῦ νόμου διανοεῖσθαι, καὶ ὡς ἀγαθὸν αὐτὸ ζητεῖν.
314dΕΤ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
314dΣΩ. οὐκοῦν δόγμα ἔφαμεν εἶναι πόλεως τὸν νόμον;
314eΕΤ. ἔφαμεν γάρ.
314eΣΩ. τί οὖν; οὐκ ἔστιν τὰ μὲν χρηστὰ δόγματα, τὰ δὲ πονηρά;
314eΕΤ. ἔστιν μὲν οὖν.
314eΣΩ. καὶ μὴν νόμος γε οὐκ ἦν πονηρός.
314eΕΤ. οὐ γάρ.
314eΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα ὀρθῶς ἔχει ἀποκρίνεσθαι οὕτως ἁπλῶς ὅτι νόμος ἐστὶ δόγμα πόλεως.
314eΕΤ. οὐκ ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
314eΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα ἁρμόττοι ἂν τὸ πονηρὸν δόγμα νόμος εἶναι.
314eΕΤ. οὐ δῆτα.
314eΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν δόξα γέ τις καὶ αὐτῷ μοι καταφαίνεται ὁ νόμος εἶναι· ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὐχ ἡ πονηρὰ δόξα, ἆρα οὐκ ἤδη τοῦτο κατάδηλον, ὡς ἡ χρηστή, εἴπερ δόξα νόμος ἐστί;
314eΕΤ. ναί.
314eΣΩ. δόξα δὲ χρηστὴ τίς ἐστιν; οὐχ ἡ ἀληθής;
Section 314
313cNow what can law be? Let us consider it in this way. Suppose someone had asked us about what was stated just now:
314aSince you say it is by sight that things seen are seen, what is this sight whereby they are seen? Our answer to him would have been: That sensation which shows objects by means of the eyes. And if he had asked us again: Well then, since it is by hearing that things heard are heard, what is hearing? Our answer to him would have been: That sensation which shows us sounds by means of the ears. In the same way then, suppose he should also ask us: Since it is by law that loyally accepted things are so accepted, what is this law whereby they are so accepted?
314bIs it some sensation or showing, as when things learnt are learnt by knowledge showing them, or some discovery, as when things discovered are discovered—for instance, the causes of health and sickness by medicine, or the designs of the gods, as the prophets say, by prophecy; for art is surely our discovery of things, is it not?
314bCertainly.
314bThen what thing especially of this sort shall we surmise law to be?
314bOur resolutions and decrees, I imagine: for how else can one describe law?
314cSo that apparently the whole thing, law, as you put it in your question, is a city’s resolution.
314cState opinion, it seems, is what you call law.
314cI do.
314cAnd perhaps you are right: but I fancy we shall get a better knowledge in this way. You call some men wise?
314cI do.
314cAnd the wise are wise by wisdom?
314cYes.
314cAnd again, the just are just by justice?
314cCertainly.
314cAnd so the law-abiding are law-abiding by law?
314cYes.
314cAnd the lawless are lawless by lawlessness?
314cYes.
314cAnd the law-abiding are just?
314cYes.
314cAnd the lawless are unjust?
314cUnjust.
314cAnd justice and law are most noble?
314cThat is so.
314cAnd injustice and lawlessness most base?
314cYes.
314cAnd the former preserve cities and everything else, while the latter destroy and overturn them?
314cYes.
314cHence we must regard law as something noble, and seek after it as a good.
314cUndeniably.
314cAnd we said that law is a city’s resolution?
314cSo we did.
314cWell now, are not some resolutions good, and others evil?
314cYes, to be sure.
314cAnd, you know, law was not evil.
314cNo, indeed.
314cSo it is not right to reply, in that simple fashion, that law is a city’s resolution.
314cI agree that it is not.
314cAn evil resolution, you see, cannot properly be a law.
314cNo, to be sure.
314cBut still, I am quite clear myself that law is some sort of opinion; and since it is not evil opinion, is it not manifest by this time that it is good opinion, granting that law is opinion?
314cYes.
314cBut what is good opinion? Is it not true opinion?
Section 315
315aΕΤ. ναί.
315aΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἡ ἀληθὴς δόξα τοῦ ὄντος ἐστὶν ἐξεύρεσις;
315aΕΤ. ἔστιν γάρ.
315aΣΩ. ὁ νόμος ἄρα βούλεται τοῦ ὄντος εἶναι ἐξεύρεσις.
315aΕΤ. πῶς οὖν, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰ ὁ νόμος ἐστὶν τοῦ ὄντος ἐξεύρεσις, οὐκ ἀεὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς νόμοις χρώμεθα περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν, εἰ τὰ ὄντα γε ἡμῖν ἐξηύρηται;
315aΣΩ. βούλεται μὲν οὐδὲν ἧττον ὁ νόμος εἶναι τοῦ ὄντος ἐξεύρεσις· οἱ δʼ ἄρα μὴ τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἀεὶ νόμοις χρώμενοι
315bἄνθρωποι, ὡς δοκοῦμεν, οὐκ ἀεὶ δύνανται ἐξευρίσκειν ὃ βούλεται ὁ νόμος, τὸ ὄν. ἐπεὶ φέρε ἴδωμεν ἐὰν ἄρα ἡμῖν ἐνθένδε κατάδηλον γένηται εἴτε τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἀεὶ νόμοις χρώμεθα ἢ ἄλλοτε ἄλλοις, καὶ εἰ ἅπαντες τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἢ ἄλλοι ἄλλοις.
315bΕΤ. ἀλλὰ τοῦτό γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐ χαλεπὸν γνῶναι, ὅτι οὔτε οἱ αὐτοὶ ἀεὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς νόμοις χρῶνται ἄλλοι τε ἄλλοις. ἐπεὶ αὐτίκα ἡμῖν μὲν οὐ νόμος ἐστὶν ἀνθρώπους θύειν ἀλλʼ ἀνόσιον, Καρχηδόνιοι δὲ θύουσιν ὡς ὅσιον ὂν
315cκαὶ νόμιμον αὐτοῖς, καὶ ταῦτα ἔνιοι αὐτῶν καὶ τοὺς αὑτῶν ὑεῖς τῷ Κρόνῳ, ὡς ἴσως καὶ σὺ ἀκήκοας. καὶ μὴ ὅτι βάρβαροι ἄνθρωποι ἡμῶν ἄλλοις νόμοις χρῶνται, ἀλλὰ καὶ οἱ ἐν τῇ Λυκαίᾳ οὗτοι καὶ οἱ τοῦ Ἀθάμαντος ἔκγονοι οἵας θυσίας θύουσιν Ἕλληνες ὄντες. ὥσπερ καὶ ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς οἶσθά που καὶ αὐτὸς ἀκούων οἵοις νόμοις ἐχρώμεθα πρὸ τοῦ περὶ τοὺς ἀποθανόντας, ἱερεῖά τε προσφάττοντες πρὸ τῆς ἐκφορᾶς τοῦ νεκροῦ καὶ ἐγχυτιστρίας μεταπεμπόμενοι· οἱ
315dδʼ αὖ ἐκείνων ἔτι πρότεροι αὐτοῦ καὶ ἔθαπτον ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ τοὺς ἀποθανόντας· ἡμεῖς δὲ τούτων οὐδὲν ποιοῦμεν. μυρία δʼ ἄν τις ἔχοι τοιαῦτα εἰπεῖν· πολλὴ γὰρ εὐρυχωρία τῆς ἀποδείξεως ὡς οὔτε ἡμεῖς ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς ἀεὶ κατὰ ταὐτὰ νομίζομεν οὔτε ἀλλήλοις οἱ ἄνθρωποι.
315dΣΩ. οὐδέν τοι θαυμαστόν ἐστιν, ὦ βέλτιστε, εἰ σὺ μὲν ὀρθῶς λέγεις, ἐμὲ δὲ τοῦτο λέληθεν. ἀλλʼ ἕως ἂν σύ τε κατὰ σαυτὸν λέγῃς ἅ σοι δοκεῖ μακρῷ λόγῳ καὶ πάλιν ἐγώ,
315eοὐδὲν μή ποτε συμβῶμεν, ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι· ἐὰν δὲ κοινὸν τεθῇ τὸ σκέμμα, τάχʼ ἂν ὁμολογήσαιμεν. εἰ μὲν οὖν βούλει, πυνθανόμενός τι παρʼ ἐμοῦ κοινῇ μετʼ ἐμοῦ σκόπει· εἰ δʼ αὖ βούλει, ἀποκρινόμενος.
315eΕΤ. ἀλλʼ ἐθέλω, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀποκρίνεσθαι ὅτι ἂν βούλῃ.
315eΣΩ. φέρε δὴ σύ, πότερα νομίζεις τὰ δίκαια ἄδικα εἶναι καὶ τὰ ἄδικα δίκαια, ἢ τὰ μὲν δίκαια δίκαια, τὰ δὲ ἄδικα ἄδικα;
Section 315
314cYes.
314cAnd true opinion is discovery of reality?
314cYes, it is.
314cSo law tends to be discovery of reality.
314cThen how is it, Socrates, if law is discovery of reality, that we do not use always the same laws on the same matters, if we have thus got realities discovered?
314cLaw tends none the less to be discovery of reality: but men, who do not use
315balways the same laws, as we observe, are not always able to discover what the law is intent on—reality. For come now, let us see if from this point onward we can get it clear whether we use always the same laws or different ones at different times, and whether we all use the same, or some of us use some, and others others.
315bWhy, that, Socrates, is no difficult matter to determine—that the same men do not use always the same laws, and also that different men use different ones. With us, for instance, human sacrifice is not legal, but unholy,
315cwhereas the Carthaginians perform it as a thing they account holy and legal, and that too when some of them sacrifice even their own sons to Cronos, as I daresay you yourself have heard. And not merely is it foreign peoples who use different laws from ours, but our neighbors in Lycaea and the descendants of Athamas —you know their sacrifices, Greeks though they be. And as to ourselves too, you know, of course, from what you have heard yourself, the kind of laws we formerly used in regard to our dead, when we slaughtered sacred victims before
315dthe funeral procession, and engaged urn-women to collect the bones from the ashes. Then again, a yet earlier generation used to bury the dead where they were, in the house: but we do none of these things. One might give thousands of other instances; for there is ample means of proving that neither we copy ourselves nor mankind each other always in laws and customs.
315dAnd it is no wonder, my excellent friend, if what you say is correct, and I have overlooked it. But if you continue to express your views after your own fashion in lengthy speeches,
315eand I speak likewise, we shall never come to any agreement, in my opinion: but if we study the matter jointly, we may perhaps concur. Well now, if you like, hold a joint inquiry with me by asking me questions; or if you prefer, by answering them.
315eWhy, I am willing, Socrates, to answer anything you like.
315eCome then, do you consider just things to be unjust and unjust things just, or just things to be just and unjust things unjust?
Section 316
315eΕΤ. ἐγὼ μὲν τά τε δίκαια δίκαια καὶ τὰ ἄδικα
316aἄδικα.
316aΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ παρὰ πᾶσιν οὕτως ὡς ἐνθάδε νομίζεται;
316aΕΤ. ναί.
316aΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐν Πέρσαις;
316aΕΤ. καὶ ἐν Πέρσαις.
316aΣΩ. ἀλλὰ ἀεὶ δήπου;
316aΕΤ. ἀεί.
316aΣΩ. πότερον δὲ τὰ πλεῖον ἕλκοντα βαρύτερα νομίζεται ἐνθάδε, τὰ δὲ ἔλαττον κουφότερα, ἢ τοὐναντίον;
316aΕΤ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τὰ πλεῖον ἕλκοντα βαρύτερα, τὰ δὲ ἔλαττον κουφότερα.
316aΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐν Καρχηδόνι καὶ ἐν Λυκαίᾳ;
316aΕΤ. ναί.
316aΣΩ. τὰ μὲν καλά, ὡς ἔοικε, πανταχοῦ νομίζεται
316bκαλὰ καὶ τὰ αἰσχρὰ αἰσχρά, ἀλλʼ οὐ τὰ αἰσχρὰ καλὰ οὐδὲ τὰ καλὰ αἰσχρά.
316bΕΤ. οὕτως.
316bΣΩ. οὐκοῦν, ὡς κατὰ πάντων εἰπεῖν, τὰ ὄντα νομίζεται εἶναι, οὐ τὰ μὴ ὄντα, καὶ παρʼ ἡμῖν καὶ παρὰ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἅπασιν.
316bΕΤ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
316bΣΩ. ὃς ἂν ἄρα τοῦ ὄντος ἁμαρτάνῃ, τοῦ νομίμου ἁμαρτάνει.
316bΕΤ. οὕτω μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὡς σὺ λέγεις, καὶ φαίνεται ταῦτα νόμιμα καὶ ἡμῖν ἀεὶ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις· ἐπειδὰν δʼ ἐννοήσω
316cὅτι οὐδὲν παυόμεθα ἄνω κάτω μετατιθέμενοι τοὺς νόμους, οὐ δύναμαι πεισθῆναι.
316cΣΩ. ἴσως γὰρ οὐκ ἐννοεῖς ταῦτα μεταπεττευόμενα ὅτι ταὐτά ἐστιν. ἀλλʼ ὧδε μετʼ ἐμοῦ αὐτὰ ἄθρει. ἤδη ποτὲ ἐνέτυχες συγγράμματι περὶ ὑγιείας τῶν καμνόντων;
316cΕΤ. ἔγωγε.
316cΣΩ. οἶσθα οὖν τίνος τέχνης τοῦτʼ ἐστὶ τὸ σύγγραμμα;
316cΕΤ. οἶδα, ὅτι ἰατρικῆς.
316cΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἰατροὺς καλεῖς τοὺς ἐπιστήμονας περὶ τούτων;
316cΕΤ. φημί.
316dΣΩ. πότερον οὖν οἱ ἐπιστήμονες ταὐτὰ περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν νομίζουσιν ἢ ἄλλοι ἄλλα;
316dΕΤ. ταὐτὰ ἔμοιγε δοκοῦσι.
316dΣΩ. πότερον οἱ Ἕλληνες μόνοι τοῖς Ἕλλησιν ἢ καὶ οἱ βάρβαροι αὑτοῖς τε καὶ τοῖς Ἕλλησι, περὶ ὧν ἂν εἰδῶσι, ταὐτὰ νομίζουσι;
316dΕΤ. ταὐτὰ δήπου πολλὴ ἀνάγκη ἐστὶν τοὺς εἰδότας αὐτοὺς αὑτοῖς συννομίζειν καὶ Ἕλληνας καὶ βαρβάρους.
316dΣΩ. καλῶς γε ἀπεκρίνω. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀεί;
316dΕΤ. ναί, καὶ ἀεί.
316dΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ οἱ ἰατροὶ συγγράφουσι περὶ ὑγιείας ἅπερ
316eκαὶ νομίζουσιν εἶναι;
316eΕΤ. ναί.
316eΣΩ. ἰατρικὰ ἄρα καὶ ἰατρικοὶ νόμοι ταῦτα τὰ συγγράμματα ἐστὶν τὰ τῶν ἰατρῶν.
316eΕΤ. ἰατρικὰ μέντοι.
316eΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν καὶ τὰ γεωργικὰ συγγράμματα γεωργικοὶ νόμοι εἰσίν;
316eΕΤ. ναί.
316eΣΩ. τίνων οὖν ἐστιν τὰ περὶ κήπων ἐργασίας συγγράμματα καὶ νόμιμα;
316eΕΤ. κηπουρῶν.
316eΣΩ. κηπουρικοὶ ἄρα νόμοι ἡμῖν εἰσιν οὗτοι.
316eΕΤ. ναί.
316eΣΩ. τῶν ἐπισταμένων κήπων ἄρχειν;
316eΕΤ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
316eΣΩ. ἐπίστανται δʼ οἱ κηπουροί.
316eΕΤ. ναί.
316eΣΩ. τίνων δὲ τὰ περὶ ὄψου σκευασίας συγγράμματά τε καὶ νόμιμα;
316eΕΤ. μαγείρων.
316eΣΩ. μαγειρικοὶ ἄρα οὗτοι νόμοι εἰσί;
316eΕΤ. μαγειρικοί.
Section 316
315eI consider just things to be just, and unjust things unjust.
315eAnd are they so considered among all men elsewhere as they are here?
315eYes.
315eAnd among the Persians also?
315eAmong the Persians also.
315eAlways, I presume?
315eAlways.
315eAre things that weigh more considered heavier here, and things that weigh less lighter, or the contrary?
315eNo, those that weigh more are considered heavier, and those that weigh less lighter.
315eAnd is it so in Carthage also, and in Lycaea?
315eYes.
315eNoble things, it would seem, are everywhere considered noble,
316band base things base; not base things noble or noble things base.
316bThat is so.
316bAnd thus, as a universal rule, realities, and not unrealities, are accepted as real, both among us and among all other men.
316bI agree.
316bThen whoever fails to attain reality, fails to attain accepted law.
316bIn your present way of putting it, Socrates, the same things appear to be accepted as lawful both by us and by the rest of the world, always:
316cbut when I reflect that we are continually changing our laws in all sorts of ways, I cannot bring myself to assent.
316cPerhaps it is because you do not reflect that when we change our pieces at draughts they are the same pieces. But look at it, as I do, in this way. Have you in your time come across a treatise on healing the sick?
316cI have.
316cThen do you know to what art such a treatise belongs?
316cI do: medicine.
316cAnd you give the name of doctors to those who have knowledge of these matters?
316cYes.
316cThen do those who have knowledge accept the same views on the same things, or do they accept different views?
316cThe same, in my opinion.
316cDo Greeks only accept the same views as Greeks on what they know, or do foreigners also agree on these matters, both among themselves and with Greeks?
316cIt is quite inevitable, I should say, that those who know should agree in accepting the same views, whether Greeks or foreigners.
316cWell answered. And do they so always?
316cYes, it is so always.
316cAnd do doctors on their part, in their treatises on health,
316ewrite what they accept as real?
316eYes.
316eThen these treatises of the doctors are medical, and medical laws.
316eMedical, to be sure.
316eAnd are agricultural treatises likewise agricultural laws?
316eYes.
316eAnd whose are the treatises and accepted rules about garden-work?
316eGardeners’.
316eSo these are our gardening laws.
316eYes.
316eOf people who know how to control gardens?
316eCertainly.
316eAnd it is the gardeners who know.
316eYes.
316eAnd whose are the treatises and accepted rules about the confection of tasty dishes?
316eCooks’.
316eThen there are laws of cookery?
316eOf cookery.
Section 317
316eΣΩ. τῶν ἐπισταμένων, ὡς
317aἔοικεν, ὄψου σκευασίας ἄρχειν;
317aΕΤ. ναί.
317aΣΩ. ἐπίστανται δέ, ὥς φασιν, οἱ μάγειροι;
317aΕΤ. ἐπίστανται γάρ.
317aΣΩ. εἶεν· τίνων δὲ δὴ τὰ περὶ πόλεως διοικήσεως συγγράμματά τε καὶ νόμιμά ἐστιν; ἆρʼ οὐ τῶν ἐπισταμένων πόλεων ἄρχειν;
317aΕΤ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
317aΣΩ. ἐπίστανται δὲ ἄλλοι τινὲς ἢ οἱ πολιτικοί τε καὶ οἱ βασιλικοί;
317aΕΤ. οὗτοι μὲν οὖν.
317aΣΩ. πολιτικὰ ἄρα ταῦτα συγγράμματά ἐστιν, οὓς οἱ ἄνθρωποι νόμους καλοῦσι, βασιλέων τε καὶ ἀνδρῶν
317bἀγαθῶν συγγράμματα.
317bΕΤ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
317bΣΩ. ἄλλο τι οὖν οἵ γε ἐπιστάμενοι οὐκ ἄλλοτε ἄλλα συγγράψουσι περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν;
317bΕΤ. οὔ.
317bΣΩ. οὐδὲ μεταθήσονταί ποτε περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα νόμιμα;
317bΕΤ. οὐ δῆτα.
317bΣΩ. ἐὰν οὖν ὁρῶμέν τινας ὁπουοῦν τοῦτο ποιοῦντας, πότερα φήσομεν ἐπιστήμονας εἶναι ἢ ἀνεπιστήμονας τοὺς τοῦτο ποιοῦντας;
317bΕΤ. ἀνεπιστήμονας.
317bΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ὃ μὲν ἂν ὀρθὸν ᾖ, νόμιμον αὐτὸ φήσομεν ἑκάστῳ εἶναι, ἢ τὸ ἰατρικὸν ἢ τὸ μαγειρικὸν ἢ τὸ κηπουρικόν;
317cΕΤ. ναί.
317cΣΩ. ὃ δʼ ἂν μὴ ὀρθὸν ᾖ, οὐκέτι φήσομεν τοῦτο νόμιμον εἶναι;
317cΕΤ. οὐκέτι.
317cΣΩ. ἄνομον ἄρα γίγνεται.
317cΕΤ. ἀνάγκη.
317cΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐν τοῖς συγγράμμασι τοῖς περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων καὶ ὅλως περὶ πόλεως διακοσμήσεώς τε καὶ περὶ τοῦ ὡς χρὴ πόλιν διοικεῖν, τὸ μὲν ὀρθὸν νόμος ἐστὶ βασιλικός, τὸ δὲ μὴ ὀρθὸν οὔ, ὃ δοκεῖ νόμος εἶναι τοῖς μὴ εἰδόσιν· ἔστιν γὰρ ἄνομον.
317cΕΤ. ναί.
317dΣΩ. ὀρθῶς ἄρα ὡμολογήσαμεν νόμον εἶναι τοῦ ὄντος εὕρεσιν.
317dΕΤ. φαίνεται.
317dΣΩ. ἔτι δὲ καὶ τόδε ἐν αὐτῷ διαθεώμεθα. τίς ἐπιστήμων διανεῖμαι ἐπὶ γῇ τὰ σπέρματα;
317dΕΤ. γεωργός.
317dΣΩ. οὗτος δὲ τὰ ἄξια σπέρματα ἑκάστῃ γῇ διανέμει;
317dΕΤ. ναί.
317dΣΩ. ὁ γεωργὸς ἄρα νομεὺς ἀγαθὸς τούτων, καὶ οἱ τούτου νόμοι καὶ διανομαὶ ἐπὶ ταῦτα ὀρθαί εἰσιν;
317dΕΤ. ναί.
317dΣΩ. τίς δὲ κρουμάτων ἐπὶ τὰ μέλη ἀγαθὸς νομεύς, καὶ τὰ ἄξια νεῖμαι; καὶ οἱ τίνος νόμοι ὀρθοί εἰσιν;
317dΕΤ. οἱ τοῦ
317eαὐλητοῦ καὶ τοῦ κιθαριστοῦ.
317eΣΩ. ὁ νομικώτατος ἄρα ἐν τούτοις, οὗτος αὐλητικώτατος.
317eΕΤ. ναί.
317eΣΩ. τίς δὲ τὴν τροφὴν ἐπὶ τὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων σώματα διανεῖμαι ἄριστος; οὐχ ὅσπερ τὴν ἀξίαν;
317eΕΤ. ναί.
317eΣΩ. αἱ τούτου ἄρα διανομαὶ καὶ οἱ νόμοι βέλτιστοι, καὶ ὅστις περὶ ταῦτα νομικώτατος, καὶ νομεὺς ἄριστος.
317eΕΤ. πάνυ γε.
317eΣΩ. τίς οὗτος;
Section 317
316eOf people who know, it would seem, how to control the confection of tasty dishes?
316eYes.
316eAnd it is the cooks, they say, who know?
316eYes, it is they who know.
316eVery well; and now, whose are the treatises and accepted rules about the government of a state? Of the people who know how to control states, are they not?
316eI agree.
316eAnd is it anyone else than statesmen and royal persons who know?
316eIt is they, to be sure.
316eThen what people call laws are treatises of state,—
317bwritings of kings and good men.
317bThat is true.
317bAnd must it not be that those who know will not write differently at different times on the same matters?
317bThey will not.
317bNor will they ever change one set of accepted rules for another in respect of the same matters.
317bNo, indeed.
317bSo if we see some persons anywhere doing this, shall we say that those who do so have knowledge, or have none?
317bThat they have no knowledge.
317bAnd again, whatever is right, we shall say is lawful for each person, whether in medicine or in cookery or in gardening?
317bYes.
317bAnd whatever is not right we shall decline to call lawful?
317bWe shall decline.
317bThen it becomes unlawful.
317bIt must.
317bAnd again, in writings about what is just and unjust, and generally about the government of a state and the proper way of governing it, that which is right is the king’s law, but not so that which is not right, though it seems to be law to those who do not know; for it is unlawful.
317bYes.
317bThen we rightly admitted that law is discovery of reality.
317bSo it appears.
317bNow let us observe this further point about it. Who has knowledge of distributing seed over land?
317bA farmer.
317bAnd does he distribute the suitable seed to each sort of land?
317bYes.
317bThen the farmer is a good apportioner of it, and his laws and distributions are right in this matter?
317bYes.
317bAnd who is a good apportioner of notes struck for a tune, skilled in distributing suitable notes, and who is it whose laws are right here?
317bThe flute-player and the harp-player.
317bThen he who is the best lawyer in these matters is the best flute-player.
317bYes.
317bAnd who is most skilled in distributing food to human bodies? Is it not he who assigns suitable food?
317bYes.
317bThen his distributions and laws are best, and whoever is the best lawyer in this matter is also the best apportioner.
317bCertainly.
317bWho is he?
Section 318
318aΕΤ. παιδοτρίβης.
318aΣΩ. οὗτος τὴν ἀνθρωπείαν ἀγέλην τοῦ σώματος νέμειν κράτιστος;
318aΕΤ. ναί.
318aΣΩ. τίς δὲ τὴν τῶν προβάτων ἀγέλην κράτιστος νέμειν; τί ὄνομα αὐτῷ;
318aΕΤ. ποιμήν.
318aΣΩ. οἱ τοῦ ποιμένος ἄρα νόμοι ἄριστοι τοῖς προβάτοις.
318aΕΤ. ναί.
318aΣΩ. οἱ δὲ τοῦ βουκόλου τοῖς βουσί.
318aΕΤ. ναί.
318aΣΩ. οἱ δὲ τοῦ τίνος νόμοι ἄριστοι ταῖς ψυχαῖς τῶν ἀνθρώπων; οὐχ οἱ τοῦ βασιλέως; φάθι.
318aΕΤ. φημὶ δή.
318bΣΩ. καλῶς τοίνυν λέγεις. ἔχοις ἂν οὖν εἰπεῖν τίς τῶν παλαιῶν ἀγαθὸς γέγονεν ἐν τοῖς αὐλητικοῖς νόμοις νομοθέτης; ἴσως οὐκ ἐννοεῖς, ἀλλʼ ἐγὼ βούλει σε ὑπομνήσω;
318bΕΤ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
318bΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν ὁ Μαρσύας λέγεται καὶ τὰ παιδικὰ αὐτοῦ Ὄλυμπος ὁ Φρύξ;
318bΕΤ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
318bΣΩ. τούτων δὴ καὶ τὰ αὐλήματα θειότατά ἐστι, καὶ μόνα κινεῖ καὶ ἐκφαίνει τοὺς τῶν θεῶν ἐν χρείᾳ ὄντας· καὶ ἔτι καὶ
318cνῦν μόνα λοιπά, ὡς θεῖα ὄντα.
318cΕΤ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
318cΣΩ. τίς δὲ λέγεται τῶν παλαιῶν βασιλέων ἀγαθὸς νομοθέτης γεγονέναι, οὗ ἔτι καὶ νῦν τὰ νόμιμα μένει ὡς θεῖα ὄντα;
318cΕΤ. οὐκ ἐννοῶ.
318cΣΩ. οὐκ οἶσθα τίνες παλαιοτάτοις νόμοις χρῶνται τῶν Ἑλλήνων;
318cΕΤ. ἆρα Λακεδαιμονίους λέγεις καὶ Λυκοῦργον τὸν νομοθέτην;
318cΣΩ. ἀλλὰ ταῦτά γε οὐδέπω ἴσως ἔτη τριακόσια ἢ ὀλίγῳ τούτων πλείω. ἀλλὰ τούτων τῶν νομίμων τὰ βέλτιστα πόθεν
318dἥκει; οἶσθα;
318dΕΤ. φασί γε ἐκ Κρήτης.
318dΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οὗτοι παλαιοτάτοις νόμοις χρῶνται τῶν Ἑλλήνων;
318dΕΤ. ναί.
318dΣΩ. οἶσθα οὖν τίνες τούτων ἀγαθοὶ βασιλῆς ἦσαν; Μίνως καὶ Ῥαδάμανθυς, οἱ Διὸς καὶ Εὐρώπης παῖδες, ὧν οἵδε εἰσὶν οἱ νόμοι.
318dΕΤ. Ῥαδάμανθύν γέ φασιν, ὦ Σώκρατες, δίκαιον ἄνδρα, τὸν δὲ Μίνων ἄγριόν τινα καὶ χαλεπὸν καὶ ἄδικον.
318dΣΩ. Ἀττικόν, ὦ βέλτιστε, λέγεις μῦθον καὶ τραγικόν.
318eΕΤ. τί δέ; οὐ ταῦτα λέγεται περὶ Μίνω;
318eΣΩ. οὔκουν ὑπό γε Ὁμήρου καὶ Ἡσιόδου· καίτοι γε πιθανώτεροί εἰσιν ἢ σύμπαντες οἱ τραγῳδοποιοί, ὧν σὺ ἀκούων ταῦτα λέγεις.
318eΕΤ. ἀλλὰ τί μὴν οὗτοι περὶ Μίνω λέγουσιν;
Section 318
317bA trainer.
317bHe is the best man to pasture the human herd of the body?
317bYes.
317bAnd who is the best man to pasture a flock of sheep? What is his name?
317bA shepherd.
317bThen the shepherd’s laws are best for sheep.
317bYes.
317bAnd the herdsman’s for oxen.
317bYes.
317bAnd whose laws are best for the souls of men? The king’s, are they not? Say if you agree.
317bI do.
317bThen you are quite right. Now can you tell me who, in former times, has proved himself a good lawgiver in regard to the laws of flute-playing? Perhaps you cannot think of him: would you like me to remind you?
317bDo by all means.
317bThen is it Marsyas, by tradition, and his beloved Olympus, the Phrygian?
317bThat is true.
317bAnd their flute-tunes also are most divine, and alone stir and make manifest those who are in need of the gods; and to this day they only remain, as being divine.
317bThat is so.
317bAnd who by tradition has shown himself a good lawgiver among the ancient kings, so that to this day his ordinances remain, as being divine?
317bI cannot think.
317bDo you not know which of the Greeks use the most ancient laws?
317bDo you mean the Spartans, and Lycurgus the lawgiver?
317bWhy, that is a matter, I daresay, of less than three hundred years ago, or but a little more. But whence is it that
318dthe best of those ordinances come? Do you know?
318dFrom Crete, so they say.
318dThen the people there use the most ancient laws in Greece?
318dYes.
318dThen do you know who were their good kings? Minos and Rhadamanthus, the sons of Zeus and Europa; those laws were theirs.
318dRhadamanthus, they do say, Socrates, was a just man; but Minos was a savage sort of person, harsh and unjust.
318dYour tale, my excellent friend, is a fiction of Attic tragedy.
318dWhat! Is not this the tradition about Minos?
318dNot in Homer and Hesiod; and yet they are more to be believed than all the tragedians together, from whom you heard your tale.
318dWell, and what, pray, is their tale about Minos?
Section 319
318eΣΩ. ἐγὼ δή σοι ἐρῶ, ἵνα μὴ καὶ σὺ ὥσπερ οἱ πολλοὶ ἀσεβῇς. οὐ γὰρ ἔσθʼ ὅτι τούτου ἀσεβέστερόν ἐστιν οὐδʼ ὅτι χρὴ μᾶλλον εὐλαβεῖσθαι, πλὴν εἰς θεοὺς καὶ λόγῳ καὶ ἔργῳ ἐξαμαρτάνειν, δεύτερον δὲ εἰς τοὺς θείους ἀνθρώπους· ἀλλὰ πάνυ πολλὴν χρὴ προμήθειαν ποιεῖσθαι ἀεί, ὅταν μέλλῃς
319aἄνδρα ψέξειν ἢ ἐπαινέσεσθαι, μὴ οὐκ ὀρθῶς εἴπῃς. τούτου καὶ ἕνεκα χρὴ μανθάνειν διαγιγνώσκειν χρηστοὺς καὶ πονηροὺς ἄνδρας. νεμεσᾷ γὰρ ὁ θεός, ὅταν τις ψέγῃ τὸν ἑαυτῷ ὅμοιον ἢ ἐπαινῇ τὸν ἑαυτῷ ἐναντίως ἔχοντα· ἔστι δʼ οὗτος ὁ ἀγαθός. μὴ γάρ τι οἴου λίθους μὲν εἶναι ἱεροὺς καὶ ξύλα καὶ ὄρνεα καὶ ὄφεις, ἀνθρώπους δὲ μή· ἀλλὰ πάντων τούτων ἱερώτατόν ἐστιν ἄνθρωπος ὁ ἀγαθός, καὶ μιαρώτατον ὁ πονηρός. ἤδη οὖν καὶ περὶ Μίνω, ὡς αὐτὸν Ὅμηρός τε καὶ Ἡσίοδος
319bἐγκωμιάζουσι, τούτου ἕνεκα φράσω, ἵνα μὴ ἄνθρωπος ὢν ἀνθρώπου εἰς ἥρω Διὸς ὑὸν λόγῳ ἐξαμαρτάνῃς. Ὅμηρος γὰρ περὶ Κρήτης λέγων ὅτι πολλοὶ ἄνθρωποι ἐν αὐτῇ εἰσιν καὶ ἐνενήκοντα πόληες, τῇσι δέ, φησίν—ἔνι Κνωσὸς μεγάλη πόλις, ἔνθα τε Μίνωςἐννέωρος βασίλευε Διὸς μεγάλου ὀαριστής.
319cἔστιν οὖν τοῦτο Ὁμήρου ἐγκώμιον εἰς Μίνων διὰ βραχέων εἰρημένον, οἷον οὐδʼ εἰς ἕνα τῶν ἡρώων ἐποίησεν Ὅμηρος. ὅτι μὲν γὰρ ὁ Ζεὺς σοφιστής ἐστιν καὶ ἡ τέχνη αὕτη παγκάλη ἐστί, πολλαχοῦ καὶ ἄλλοθι δηλοῖ, ἀτὰρ καὶ ἐνταῦθα. λέγει γὰρ τὸν Μίνων συγγίγνεσθαι ἐνάτῳ ἔτει τῷ Διὶ ἐν λόγοις καὶ φοιτᾶν παιδευθησόμενον ὡς ὑπὸ σοφιστοῦ ὄντος τοῦ Διός. ὅτι οὖν τοῦτο τὸ γέρας οὐκ ἔστιν ὅτῳ ἀπένειμεν Ὅμηρος τῶν ἡρώων, ὑπὸ Διὸς πεπαιδεῦσθαι, ἄλλῳ ἢ Μίνῳ,
319dτοῦτʼ ἔστιν ἔπαινος θαυμαστός. καὶ Ὀδυσσείας ἐν Νεκυίᾳ δικάζοντα χρυσοῦν σκῆπτρον ἔχοντα πεποίηκε τὸν Μίνων, οὐ τὸν Ῥαδάμανθυν· Ῥαδάμανθυν δὲ οὔτʼ ἐνταῦθα δικάζοντα πεποίηκεν οὔτε συγγιγνόμενον τῷ Διὶ οὐδαμοῦ. διὰ ταῦτά φημʼ ἐγὼ Μίνων ἁπάντων μάλιστα ὑπὸ Ὁμήρου ἐγκεκωμιάσθαι. τὸ γὰρ Διὸς ὄντα παῖδα μόνον ὑπὸ Διὸς πεπαιδεῦσθαι οὐκ ἔχει ὑπερβολὴν ἐπαίνου—τοῦτο γὰρ σημαίνει τὸ ἔπος τὸ—ἐννέωρος βασίλευε Διὸς μεγάλου ὀαριστής,
319eσυνουσιαστὴν τοῦ Διὸς εἶναι τὸν Μίνων. οἱ γὰρ ὄαροι λόγοι εἰσίν, καὶ ὀαριστὴς συνουσιαστής ἐστιν ἐν λόγοις—ἐφοίτα οὖν διʼ ἐνάτου ἔτους εἰς τὸ τοῦ Διὸς ἄντρον ὁ Μίνως, τὰ μὲν μαθησόμενος, τὰ δὲ ἀποδειξόμενος ἃ τῇ προτέρᾳ ἐννεετηρίδι ἐμεμαθήκει παρὰ τοῦ Διός.
Section 319
318dI will tell you, in order that you may not share the impiety of the multitude: for there cannot conceivably be anything more impious or more to be guarded against than being mistaken in word and deed with regard to the gods, and after them, with regard to divine men; you must take very great precaution, whenever you are about to
319ablame or praise a man, so as not to speak incorrectly. For this reason you must learn to distinguish honest and dishonest men: for God feels resentment when one blames a man who is like himself, or praises a man who is the opposite; and the former is the good man. For you must not suppose that while stocks and stones and birds and snakes are sacred, men are not; nay, the good man is the most sacred of all these things, and the wicked man is the most defiled. So if I now proceed to relate how Minos is eulogized by Homer
319band Hesiod, my purpose is to prevent you, a man sprung from a man, from making a mistake in regard to a hero who was the son of Zeus. For Homer, in telling of Crete that there were in it many men and ninety cities, says: And amongst them is the mighty city of Cnossos, where Minos was king, having colloquy with mighty Zeus in the ninth year.
319cNow here in Homer we have a eulogy of Minos, briefly expressed, such as the poet never composed for a single one of the heroes. For that Zeus is a sophist, and that sophistry is a highly honorable art, he makes plain in many other places, and particularly here. For he says that Minos consorted and discoursed with Zeus in the ninth year, and went regularly to be educated by Zeus as though he were a sophist. And the fact that Homer assigned this privilege of having been educated by Zeus to no one among the heroes but Minos makes this a marvellous piece of praise.
319dAnd in the Ghost-raising in the Odyssey he has described Minos as judging with a golden scepter in his hand, but not Rhadamanthus: Rhadamanthus he has neither described here as judging nor anywhere as consorting with Zeus; wherefore I say that Minos above all persons has been eulogized by Homer. For to have been the son of Zeus, and to have been the only one who was educated by Zeus, is praise unsurpassable. For the meaning of the verse— he was king having colloquy with mighty Zeus in the ninth year” —
319eis that Minos was a disciple of Zeus. For colloquies are discourses, and he who has colloquy is a disciple by means of discourse. So every ninth year Minos repaired to the cave of Zeus, to learn some things, and to show his knowledge of others that he had learnt from Zeus in the preceding nine years.
Section 320
319eΣΩ. εἰσὶν δὲ οἳ ὑπολαμβάνουσι τὸν ὀαριστὴν συμπότην καὶ συμπαιστὴν εἶναι τοῦ Διός, ἀλλὰ τῷδε ἄν τις τεκμηρίῳ χρῷτο ὅτι οὐδὲν λέγουσιν οἱ οὕτως
320aὑπολαμβάνοντες· πολλῶν γὰρ ὄντων ἀνθρώπων καὶ Ἑλλήνων καὶ βαρβάρων, οὐκ ἔστιν οἵτινες ἀπέχονται συμποσίων καὶ ταύτης τῆς παιδιᾶς, οὗ ἔστιν οἶνος, ἄλλοι ἢ Κρῆτες καὶ Λακεδαιμόνιοι δεύτεροι, μαθόντες παρὰ Κρητῶν. ἐν Κρήτῃ δὲ εἷς οὗτός ἐστι τῶν ἄλλων νόμων οὓς Μίνως ἔθηκε, μὴ συμπίνειν ἀλλήλοις εἰς μέθην. καίτοι δῆλον ὅτι ἃ ἐνόμιζεν καλὰ εἶναι, ταῦτα νόμιμα ἔθηκεν καὶ τοῖς αὑτοῦ πολίταις.
320bοὐ γάρ που, ὥσπερ γε φαῦλος ἄνθρωπος, ὁ Μίνως ἐνόμιζεν μὲν ἕτερα, ἐποίει δὲ ἄλλα παρʼ ἃ ἐνόμιζεν· ἀλλὰ ἦν αὕτη ἡ συνουσία ὥσπερ ἐγὼ λέγω, διὰ λόγων ἐπὶ παιδείᾳ εἰς ἀρετήν. ὅθεν δὴ καὶ τοὺς νόμους τούτους ἔθηκε τοῖς αὑτοῦ πολίταις, διʼ οὓς ἥ τε Κρήτη τὸν πάντα χρόνον εὐδαιμονεῖ καὶ Λακεδαίμων, ἀφʼ οὗ ἤρξατο τούτοις χρῆσθαι, ἅτε θείοις οὖσιν. Ῥαδάμανθυς δὲ ἀγαθὸς μὲν ἦν ἀνήρ· ἐπεπαίδευτο γὰρ
320cὑπὸ τοῦ Μίνω. ἐπεπαίδευτο μέντοι οὐχ ὅλην τὴν βασιλικὴν τέχνην, ἀλλʼ ὑπηρεσίαν τῇ βασιλικῇ, ὅσον ἐπιστατεῖν ἐν τοῖς δικαστηρίοις· ὅθεν καὶ δικαστὴς ἀγαθὸς ἐλέχθη εἶναι. νομοφύλακι γὰρ αὐτῷ ἐχρῆτο ὁ Μίνως κατὰ τὸ ἄστυ, τὰ δὲ κατὰ τὴν ἄλλην Κρήτην τῷ Τάλῳ. ὁ γὰρ Τάλως τρὶς περιῄει τοῦ ἐνιαυτοῦ κατὰ τὰς κώμας, φυλάττων τοὺς νόμους ἐν αὐταῖς, ἐν χαλκοῖς γραμματείοις ἔχων γεγραμμένους τοὺς νόμους, ὅθεν χαλκοῦς ἐκλήθη. εἴρηκε δὲ καὶ Ἡσίοδος ἀδελφὰ
320dτούτων εἰς τὸν Μίνων. μνησθεὶς γὰρ αὐτοῦ τοῦ ὀνόματος φησίν—ὃς βασιλεύτατος γένετο θνητῶν βασιλήων,καὶ πλείστων ἤνασσε περικτιόνων ἀνθρώπων,Ζηνὸς ἔχων σκῆπτρον· τῷ καὶ πολέων βασίλευεν. καὶ οὗτος λέγει τὸ τοῦ Διὸς σκῆπτρον οὐδὲν ἄλλο ἢ τὴν παιδείαν τὴν τοῦ Διός, ᾗ εὔθυνε τὴν Κρήτην.
320dΕΤ. διὰ τί οὖν ποτε, ὦ Σώκρατες, αὕτη ἡ φήμη κατεσκέδασται
320eτοῦ Μίνω ὡς ἀπαιδεύτου τινὸς καὶ χαλεποῦ ὄντος;
Section 320
319eSome there are who suppose that he who has colloquy is a cup-companion and fellow-jester of Zeus: but one may take the following as a proof that
320athey who suppose so are babblers. For of all the many nations of men, both Greek and foreign, the only people who refrain from drinking-bouts and the jesting that occurs where there is wine, are the Cretans, and after them the Spartans, who learnt it from the Cretans. In Crete it is one of their laws which Minos ordained that they are not to drink with each other to intoxication. And yet it is evident that the things he thought honorable were what he ordained as lawful for his people as well. For surely Minos did not, like an inferior person,
320bthink one thing and do another, different from what he thought: no, this intercourse, as I say, was held by means of discussion for education in virtue. Wherefore he ordained for his people these very laws, which have made Crete happy through the length of time, and Sparta happy also, since she began to use them; for they are divine. Rhadamanthus was a good man indeed, for he had been educated by Minos; he had, however, been educated,
320cnot in the whole of the kingly art, but in one subsidiary to the kingly, enough for presiding in law courts; so that he was spoken of as a good judge. For Minos used him as guardian of the law in the city, and Talos as the same for the rest of Crete. For Talos thrice a year made a round of the villages, guarding the laws in them, by holding their laws inscribed on brazen tablets, which gave him his name of brazen. And what Hesiod also has said
320dof Minos is akin to this. For after mentioning him by name he remarks— Who was most kingly of mortal kings, and lorded it over more neighboring folk than any, holding the scepter of Zeus: therewith it was that he ruled the cities as king. And by the scepter of Zeus he means nothing else than the education that he had of Zeus, whereby he directed Crete.
320dThen how has it ever come about, Socrates, that this report is spread abroad of Minos, as an uneducated
320eand harsh-tempered person?
Section 321
320eΣΩ. διʼ ὃ καὶ σύ, ὦ βέλτιστε, ἐὰν σωφρονῇς, εὐλαβήσῃ, καὶ ἄλλος πᾶς ἀνὴρ ὅτῳ μέλει τοῦ εὐδόκιμον εἶναι, μηδέποτε ἀπεχθάνεσθαι ἀνδρὶ ποιητικῷ μηδενί. οἱ γὰρ ποιηταὶ μέγα δύνανται εἰς δόξαν, ἐφʼ ὁπότερα ἂν ποιῶσιν εἰς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, ἢ εὐλογοῦντες ἢ κακηγοροῦντες. ὃ δὴ καὶ ἐξήμαρτεν ὁ Μίνως, πολεμήσας τῇδε τῇ πόλει, ἐν ᾗ ἄλλη τε πολλὴ σοφία ἐστὶ καὶ ποιηταὶ παντοδαποὶ τῆς τε ἄλλης ποιήσεως
321aκαὶ τραγῳδίας. ἡ δὲ τραγῳδία ἐστὶν παλαιὸν ἐνθάδε, οὐχ ὡς οἴονται ἀπὸ Θέσπιδος ἀρξαμένη οὐδʼ ἀπὸ Φρυνίχου, ἀλλʼ εἰ θέλεις ἐννοῆσαι, πάνυ παλαιὸν αὐτὸ εὑρήσεις ὂν τῆσδε τῆς πόλεως εὕρημα. ἔστιν δὲ τῆς ποιήσεως δημοτερπέστατόν τε καὶ ψυχαγωγικώτατον ἡ τραγῳδία· ἐν ᾗ δὴ καὶ ἐντείνοντες ἡμεῖς τὸν Μίνων τιμωρούμεθα ἀνθʼ ὧν ἡμᾶς ἠνάγκασε τοὺς δασμοὺς τελεῖν ἐκείνους. τοῦτο οὖν ἐξήμαρτεν ὁ Μίνως, ἀπεχθόμενος ἡμῖν, ὅθεν δή, ὃ σὺ ἐρωτᾷς, κακοδοξότερος
321bγέγονεν. ἐπεὶ ὅτι γε ἀγαθὸς ἦν καὶ νόμιμος, ὅπερ καὶ ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν ἐλέγομεν, νομεὺς ἀγαθός, τοῦτο μέγιστον σημεῖον, ὅτι ἀκίνητοι αὐτοῦ οἱ νόμοι εἰσίν, ἅτε τοῦ ὄντος περὶ πόλεως οἰκήσεως ἐξευρόντος εὖ τὴν ἀλήθειαν.
321bΕΤ. δοκεῖς μοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰκότα τὸν λόγον εἰρηκέναι.
321bΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰ ἐγὼ ἀληθῆ λέγω, δοκοῦσί σοι παλαιοτάτοις Κρῆτες οἱ Μίνω καὶ Ῥαδαμάνθυος πολῖται νόμοις χρῆσθαι;
321bΕΤ. φαίνονται.
321bΣΩ. οὗτοι ἄρα τῶν παλαιῶν ἄριστοι νομοθέται γεγόνασιν,
321cνομῆς τε καὶ ποιμένες ἀνδρῶν, ὥσπερ καὶ Ὅμηρος ἔφη ποιμένα λαῶν εἶναι τὸν ἀγαθὸν στρατηγόν.
321cΕΤ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
321cΣΩ. φέρε δὴ πρὸς Διὸς φιλίου· εἴ τις ἡμᾶς ἔροιτο, ὁ τῷ σώματι ἀγαθὸς νομοθέτης τε καὶ νομεὺς τί ἐστιν ταῦτα ἃ διανέμων ἐπὶ τὸ σῶμα βέλτιον αὐτὸ ποιεῖ, εἴποιμεν ἂν καλῶς τε καὶ διὰ βραχέων ἀποκρινόμενοι, ὅτι τροφήν τε καὶ πόνους, τῇ μὲν αὔξων, τοῖς δὲ γυμνάζων καὶ συνιστὰς τὸ σῶμα αὐτό.
321cΕΤ. ὀρθῶς γε.
321dΣΩ. εἰ οὖν δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο ἔροιτο ἡμᾶς, τί δὲ δή ποτε ἐκεῖνά ἐστιν, ἃ ὁ ἀγαθὸς νομοθέτης τε καὶ νομεὺς διανέμων ἐπὶ τὴν ψυχὴν βελτίω αὐτὴν ποιεῖ; τί ἂν ἀποκρινάμενοι οὐκ ἂν αἰσχυνθεῖμεν καὶ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν καὶ τῆς ἡλικίας αὑτῶν;
321dΕΤ. οὐκέτι τοῦτʼ ἔχω εἰπεῖν.
321dΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μέντοι αἰσχρόν γε τῇ ψυχῇ ἡμῶν ἐστιν ἑκατέρου, τὰ μὲν ἐν αὐταῖς φαίνεσθαι μὴ εἰδυίας, ἐν οἷς αὐταῖς ἔνεστι καὶ τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ τὸ φλαῦρον, τὰ δὲ τοῦ σώματος καὶ τὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἐσκέφθαι.
Section 321
320eBecause of something that will make both you, if you are wise, my excellent friend, and everybody else who cares to have a good reputation, beware of ever quarreling with any man of a poetic turn. For poets have great influence over opinion, according as they create it in the minds of men by either commending or vilifying. And this was the mistake that Minos made, in waging war on this city of ours, which besides all its various culture has poets of every kind, and especially those who write tragedy.
321aNow tragedy is a thing of ancient standing here; it did not begin, as people suppose, from Thespis or from Phrynicus, but if you will reflect, you will find it is a very ancient invention of our city. Tragedy is the most popularly delightful and soul-enthralling branch of poetry: in it, accordingly, we get Minos on the rack of verse,, and thus avenge ourselves for that tribute which he compelled us to pay This, then, was the mistake that Minos made—his quarrel with us—and hence it is that, as you said in your question, he has fallen more and more into evil repute. For that he was a good
321band law-abiding person, as we stated in what went before—a good apportioner—is most convincingly shown by the fact the his laws are unshaken, since they were made by one who discovered aright the truth of reality in regard to the management of a state.
321bIn my opinion, Socrates, your statement is a probable one.
321bThen if what I say is true, do you consider that the Cretan people of Minos and Rhadamanthus use the most ancient laws?
321bI do.
321bSo these have shown themselves the best lawgivers among men of ancient times—
321capportioners and shepherds of men; just as Homer called the good general a shepherd of the folk.
321cQuite so, indeed.
321cCome then, in good friendship’s name: if someone should ask us what it is that the good lawgiver and apportioner for the body distributes to it when he makes it better, we should say, if we were to make a correct and brief answer, that it was food and labor; the former to strengthen, and the latter to exercise and brace it.
321cAnd we should be right.
321cAnd if he then proceeded to ask us—And what might that be which the good lawgiver and apportioner distributes to the soul to make it better?—what would be our answer if we would avoid being ashamed of ourselves and our years?
321cThis time I am unable to say.
321cBut indeed it is shameful for the soul of either of us to be found ignorant of those things within it on which its good and abject states depend, while it has studied those that pertain to the body and rest.